Karune posts regarding PC, Batch 53, and YouTube (09/25/09)

[Nicol Bolas]

Maybe we should replace workers with something better...

I'm not formally against that. However, whatever you suggest that they be replaced with must retain all of the good effects of workers while providing none of the negative ones (and no new negative effects).

However, it should also be noted that the Zerg do not have this problem. Due to centralized production, the Zerg are incapable of constantly building workers. This shows that the negative effects of workers can be eliminated entirely by providing a companion mechanic that competes for the same resource (in this case, larva). So if CCs and Nexii could build something other than workers, something that was integral to their play, then workers would lose all of the negative effects while retaining the positive ones.

You claim that making workers is this incredible decision making mechanic.

...

Why cant we make them autocast? Why should I have to repeatedly cast them every 30 seconds? Why do I have to put up with this mindless busywork when Blizzard can do better?

You Fail Logic Forever. If all you can do is attack strawmen and make false analogies, your commentary is of no value here. Logical fallacies do not win arguments; all it does is annoy people.

Nobody claimed that making workers was an "incredible decision making mechanic". The claim was that it had some decision making, thus making it better than PC which has none. Some > None.

And there are big differences between PC and making workers. PC requires significantly more attention than making a worker with rally-mine. The latter requires one hotkey and a button press: 2 actions. PC requires a targeted mouse-click, which either involves aiming at pixels in the mini-map or going to your base. Either of which is more diverting than building workers.

[Caliban113]

now...Proton Charge will change before beta concludes.

Preach brother!......2000+ posts on the subject, and right there were the truest words uttered.

So is that it.....are we doomed to have every thread cluttered with this ridiculous mincing at the simple mention of PC?

Take a break...either that, or take it back to the 1700 post, Macro mechanics, "flame-parade" stickied at the top of the page.

EDIT:

....As tho I said......nothing....JEEZ-usssss!!


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[ArcherofAiur]

Nobody claimed that making workers was an "incredible decision making mechanic". The claim was that it had some decision making, thus making it better than PC which has none. Some > None.

See you keep saying "some" like its something substantial. It has very very very little decision making. Just like PC. Here do you want me to prove that PC has "some" decision making. Ok my base is under attack early game and I need to sacrifice mineral energy inorder to cast Shield Recharge. Like cutting probes, you are temporarily freeing up a resource, but damaging your economy in the long run.

[Nicol Bolas]

See you keep saying "some" like its something substantial.

No, I said "some" like it's some, which is larger than none. I made no comparisons to the decision making for other mechanics; only between PC (none) and building workers (some).

Even this small decision making can be game-changing. How many games have been won or lost due to cutting probes and going all-in? These are explicit decisions made by the player in order to enact some particular stratagem. PC has nothing like this.

Ok my base is under attack early game and I need to sacrifice mineral energy inorder to cast Shield Recharge. Like cutting probes, you are temporarily freeing up a resource, but damaging your economy in the long run.

Except you're not. Because you've been casting PC regularly, your Obelisk has between 0 and 49 energy. That can refill the shields of... one Zealot. Maybe. It's just not going to be a significant factor in the actual battle.

That's nothing at all like cutting probes to go all-in.

[ArcherofAiur]

Except you're not. Because you've been casting PC regularly, your Obelisk has between 0 and 49 energy. That can refill the shields of... one Zealot. Maybe. It's just not going to be a significant factor in the actual battle.

That's nothing at all like cutting probes to go all-in.

Just so we are straight you admit that that counts as "some" decision making, right?

Let me pose this question to you. How many games have been won/loss over a single zealot or dragoon?

[Nicol Bolas]

Just so we are straight you admit that that counts as "some" decision making, right?

I'd say that it's negligible. It is so unlikely to actually matter in a game that the presence or absence of the decision is of no material value.

However, if you want to argue that this virtual negligible decision making is equivalent, or even comparable, to the decision making with regard to cutting probes, I'd like to hear what you have to say on that matter.

How many games have been won/loss over a single zealot or dragoon?

More than the number of games that have been won/lost over a scant 49 Hp. And remember: that's best-case; average case is only 25 Hp.

Far more games have been won/lost over cutting probes.

[ArcherofAiur]

I'd say that it's negligible. It is so unlikely to actually matter in a game that the presence or absence of the decision is of no material value.

However, if you want to argue that this virtual negligible decision making is equivalent, or even comparable, to the decision making with regard to cutting probes, I'd like to hear what you have to say on that matter.

Id say it counts as some. Ill admit that cutting probes appears to be more discision making but we are both talking about things that are very very small decision making. And they both have "some" decision making.

I just thought of another possible decision making for Proton Charge. Knowing when to cast PC immediatly or wait a couple seconds for another Probe to finish. Also deciding how many probes to transfer to a new expansion. Also timing your PC to send those Probes.

[ch_bing]

Archer & PC sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G...

The way a pup adores its master.

[Santrega]

EDIT 2: Here's the map http://uploading.com/files/eb424394/TEST.scm/ maybe you can make it work correctly but I don't think we'll be able to do anything with it if the AI doesn't want to use the mineral boost.

lol, yeah, i'm gonna get it and check it out.. But thats kind of my point sandwich. Many people are going to be like the AI in the way they never get to a point where they always need to use the extra minerals which come from PC. When people see they dont need to use the extra minerals, they will stop using PC out of laziness, until it starts to have a negative effect on them somehow, whether thats directly causing losses, or causing grief in game.

Each game played will progress in the following way for most people playing the game:

1) Played Game one using PC every chance I got, never ran out of minerals.
2) Played game using PC less, still never ran out of minerals.
3) Played game using PC less, still never ran out of minerals.
4) Played game using PC less, still never ran out of minerals
5) Played game using PC less, ran out of minerals a few times
6) Played game using more pc, this time just enough that again caused me to never run out of minerals.

Only after constantly playing the game, constantly improving every facet of play, will a casual player, or the majority of players, reach a level of play where they are outspending resource intake. That is where they start improving their macro to a point they need to continue to use PC more, and more. Eventually its not just remembering to use PC in X amount of time, but remembering to use several different PCs in X amount of time.

Right now I have not seen anyone use it on more than one base. One could argue you might be better off expanding to high yield mineral fields and using one there alone would be enough of a boost to sustain all of your production unless you are a pro gamer.

I do not believe anyone under pro status will need to use PC all of the time.

The macro mechanics are in the game to create a viable sport, without them, there will be no sc2 as a sport. There just isnt enough to the game without some level of difficulty in the macro part of the game. Blizzard hasnt added artificial difficulty, they have merely changed the rules of their game. This happens in all sports, and its required for sc2 to be one. Like it or not, PC is not going anywhere unless a better alternative is thought of, and as of yet, I have not seen one of you guys against it come up with something better.

[Nicol Bolas]

I just thought of another possible decision making for Proton Charge. Knowing when to cast PC immediatly or wait a couple seconds for another Probe to finish. Also deciding how many probes to transfer to a new expansion. Also timing your PC to send those Probes.

None of those constitute decisions. The optimal play for each of those circumstances can be determined via pure mathematics.

Each game played will progress in the following way for most people playing the game:

1) Played Game one using PC every chance I got, never ran out of minerals.
2) Played game using PC less, still never ran out of minerals.
3) Played game using PC less, still never ran out of minerals.
4) Played game using PC less, still never ran out of minerals
5) Played game using PC less, ran out of minerals a few times
6) Played game using more pc, this time just enough that again caused me to never run out of minerals.

You have a very low opinion of the player that you're talking about. A decent competitive player will not stop using PC; they'll build more production infrastructure so that they can use those extra minerals. This player will be better at the game than the one you describe. Just as players don't stop expanding once they've got "enough" minerals; they expand anyway and build more production stuff.

The macro mechanics are in the game to create a viable sport, without them, there will be no sc2 as a sport.

These mechanics are far too simple and simplistic to be the deciding factor for SC2's viability as an eSport. Players who mastered single-building selection unit construction can handle PC in their sleep.

Like it or not, PC is not going anywhere unless a better alternative is thought of, and as of yet, I have not seen one of you guys against it come up with something better.

Most of the Macro-contest finalists were better.