Karune posts regarding PC, Batch 53, and YouTube (09/25/09)

[Santrega]

I think I have you guys... If psi-storm is indeed different because the target moves, as you guys have said in the following quotes:

Enemy units do not constitute a place. Because they move. Your mineral patches and Nexii aren't going anywhere.

And that doesn't even deal with the fact that it's much more effective against certain units than others, so the outcome isn't the same each time. Plus, it's on a unit that has to be out on the field, and thus is subject to sniping and must be protected.

The differences are legion.

I didnt want to respond to this quote, but I do want to mention that the Obelisk must be put on the map before the ability is used, and its subject to sniping and must be protected. There was not a difference there.

No, enemy units move around the map. Psi Storm even affects your own units, so using it while you have your own Zealots there is not trivial, and must be casted on a precise instant to maximize damage.

Enemy can dodge, and/or kill the HT. In fact, trying to maximize damage, trying to dodge, keep the HT alive, and kill them are very important skills. Psi Storm is an ability where the skill of both players are directly measured against each other.

You are saying the fact that the units are moving make casting psi-storm more fun. As in, its fun that you might miss... Even though you always cast it on enemy units. What you have said makes PC not fun is the fact it is only busy work, and can only be casted easily in the same spot over and over.

Okay,

I suggest PC's range be reduced to 1/4th. Making you have to cast it 4 times to get the same effect you would currently casting it one time. With this smaller range you will have a chance to miss your probes, thus adding to the "fun" of the game. If it's fun to try and hit moving targets with psi-storm, it must be fun to try and hit gathering probes with PC. Now, if you want to stop the probes and group them together so you never miss them with your 4 casts, then thats fine, but thats your decision. That decision also has a downside, while you maximize your ability's effect, you also waste valuable time not gathering resources.

Now, the downside to this move is you just took busy work and multiplied it by 4. However, as long is there is the Psi-Storm fun effect, it should be well worth it. The pro's will be very happy, think of all the macro they get!!!

If it could also be casted over enemy workers, that would at least add something (assuming you don't need a proxy Obelisk), but as long as the main mechanic remains, it's going to be a lot safer to just cast on your own base. Anyways, it's much better to just attack the enemy workers than slowing them down for a while.

Well if you can safely cast it from a distance on an enemy base, it would hold some advantage over using units to do it. For example, if there is a heavily guarded base which will make you lose a somewhat large amount of units. Maybe you could use it there, and attack a different location which is less guarded, hurting their economy even more. If this was added to the ability, at least it would provide a competing choice for energy. If you can cast it at the same time, with both having individual cool downs, it would be competing with the other because you would want to reduce the enemy economy, while increasing your own. If you use the energy for the enemy, you are not using the energy for you.

[Draco]

With this smaller range you will have a chance to miss your probes, thus adding to the "fun" of the game.

There's a difference between "fun" and fun. Making a mindless action 4x more tedious is missing the point.

[Santrega]

There's a difference between "fun" and fun. Making a mindless action 4x more tedious is missing the point.

It wasn't made 4x more tedious. It was made 4x more work. But the argument has been made that it is fun to try and hit things with abilities, so all that was added was more work, and more fun.

There was no point draco, because the point keeps changing. It's either too much work, or its not fun, decide which it is. If you add something which 2 of the individuals fighting against it have both said is fun, then the ability is fun. So obviously if you still have a problem, its not because of the fun, its because of the additional work required.

[Draco]

It wasn't made 4x more tedious. It was made 4x more work. But the argument has been made that it is fun to try and hit things with abilities, so all that was added was more work, and more fun.

There was no point draco, because the point keeps changing. It's either too much work, or its not fun, decide which it is. If you add something which 2 of the individuals fighting against it have both said is fun, then the ability is fun. So obviously if you still have a problem, its not because of the fun, its because of the additional work required.

Perhaps partial auras can be fun, but from the way you put it, it seemed like you were just dividing the aura into quarters and every time you normally do 1 big aura, you just do 4. More work for the same effect is tedium. I'm not going to quibble over the idea. As long as you have fun and strategy in mind, and you follow through with those goals, the design will eventually converge to something better than it is now.

[n00bonicPlague]

Totally unrelated news guys. We have 1337 threads.

I literally laughed out loud.

Anyway, I think the BR is gonna come out today.

[supersonic]

I literally laughed out loud.

Anyway, I think the BR is gonna come out today.

Why is that?

[n00bonicPlague]

Why is that?

the laugh or the guess at BR4?

[ArcherofAiur]

Santrega does a good job of pointing out the flaws in the binary logic you guys are using.

[Draco]

Santrega does a good job of pointing out the flaws in the binary logic you guys are using.

I never mentioned anything about Psi storm or having a chance to miss something is fun. I think that's what you'd call a strawman. Regardless of those deflections, my points and their points equivalent to my points still stand.

[Nicol Bolas]

If psi-storm is indeed different because the target moves

Swing-and-a-miss.

You specifically equated Psi Storm to PC because they both target one "kind" of thing. The response was therefore specifically about the differences between those "kinds" of things, because they have fundamentally different properties, thus invalidating your claim.

However, at no time was it stated by anyone that the differences between the targets are the sole differences between Psi Storm and PC. These were simply the responses to your attempt to equate "enemy units" with "workers in your mineral line".

I do want to mention that the Obelisk must be put on the map before the ability is used, and its subject to sniping and must be protected. There was not a difference there.

There's a difference between "on the map" and "on the field". High Templar, in order to be useful, must be near the enemy. The Obelisks doing PC cannot be useful near the enemy (unless that enemy is in your base). Thus they are not subject to sniping (especially since they have quite a few Hp), and only have to be protected as much as you're protecting the worker line and other features of your base. This does not compare in any way to HT.

Killing Probes is always better than killing the Obelisk anyway.

You are saying the fact that the units are moving make casting psi-storm more fun. As in, its fun that you might miss... Even though you always cast it on enemy units. What you have said makes PC not fun is the fact it is only busy work, and can only be casted easily in the same spot over and over.

This is but one of the differences between Psi Storm and PC. And it's missing half the point: where your enemy is and how they react to Psi Storm (or potential Psi Storms) is the important part. You are planning how to use Psi Storms, and they are planing how to avoid them. Both of you fight, one of you executes better, and thus one side has gained an advantage.

It's not a simple matter of "possibly missing units is fun!" You can't qualify the effects of an ability like Psi Storm so simply.

This indeed shows one of the limitations of macro, something I've been thinking about for awhile now: it's passive by default.

What makes Psi Storm not busywork is all of the little decisions involved, both by you and your opponent. You're trying to force them into bottlenecks where you can use the minimum quantity of Psi Storm. They're trying to snipe your Templar, and you're trying to stop them. Etc. Even just the ability itself has this. Do you place a storm where his units are right now, or where they are moving towards in an attempt to herd his units? In what direction do his units move to Storm Dodge, and how do you place your Storms to make him move where you want? And so forth.

Psi Storm is a competitive ability. All competitive abilities share these features. Even a spell that only can affect one specific enemy unit still has these features (so long as it's a viable spell rather than too weak/ineffective to use). To date, no macro abilities are directly competitive.

Oh, there's the macro race. One player tries to macro more than the opponent. But that's not direct competition; that's running against a clock. Indeed, you can practice your macro perfectly well without an opponent at all.

An actual fight, a competitive ability, involves having to react to plays by your opponent, while trying to control what your opponent does next. It involves direct conflict, where one player's victory is another player's defeat. You can only practice competitive abilities against, you know, competition.

In short, macro as it has been up until now is passive rather than active. Making macro active I feel is a key to cracking the macro problem. If you can use your macro to attack someone's macro (or even micro?) and have them respond in kind, with direct attacks and defenses that are not entirely unlike micro, then you'll have real macro.