Karune posts regarding PC, Batch 53, and YouTube (09/25/09)

[DemolitionSquid]

You will all seriously regret letting PC exist this long, and regret it more if it ships.

Every 30 seconds for every game of Starcraft 2 you ever play knowing that it provides completely variable returns compared to Spawn Larva and MULES.

Think about it. Just, for once, think about it.

[Santrega]

You will all seriously regret letting PC exist this long, and regret it more if it ships.

Every 30 seconds for every game of Starcraft 2 you ever play knowing that it provides completely variable returns compared to Spawn Larva and MULES.

Think about it. Just, for once, think about it.

I think what you are most afraid of, is when beta comes out the majority of players disagree with you, and then you are stuck having to play a game in which you are unhappy with some of the features. This is why you are fighting so hard against it now, before real testing of it can happen.

[DemolitionSquid]

I think what you are most afraid of, is when beta comes out the majority of players disagree with you, and then you are stuck having to play a game in which you are unhappy with some of the features. This is why you are fighting so hard against it now, before real testing of it can happen.

That is EXACTLY what I`m afraid of. That hundreds, thousands of n00bs will let PC into the game, and it won`t be until pros start to emerge who use the mechanic properly (ie. all the time) before you all finally see, "oh shit, Protoss pros can't lose because PC gives them uber minerals and they mass Zealots, but we can't just change the numbers for PC because its nature and power is entirely dependent on Probes, so either it'll never get used because it provides pathetic gains, or always gets used because its gains are too much to be ignored. So now we STILL have to come up with a new way for Protoss to macro and balance it while removing PC."

Your ignorance makes me sick, and sometimes I almost hope that it gets into the game, and isn't caught for a year or two, and then suddenly the entire game is broken when the pros come and I get to laugh at you all for killing SC2.

[Nicol Bolas]

My friend "Jack Doe" when I brought up how often these threads appear in our forums:

This is irrelevant: I'm not talking about whether it is balanced. I'm talking about whether it is a good mechanic or not. Even if it is balanced, that doesn't make it good. SBS was balanced, and it wasn't good.

We prefer to call "decision making" something different. We call it "attention" or "multitasking" depending on the subject. It may be semantics.

No, it isn't semantics; you're using a different word that has a different meaning. Decision making and multitasking are orthogonal concepts: you can have mechanics that have no decision making while providing multitasking (see PC/Mule/Spawn Larva), and you can have decision making mechanics that provide no multitasking.

By this measure, something as small as "moving to base, doing mechanic redundantly, moving back" could actually be the 1-3 seconds that your opponent un-burrows the banelings onto your unsuspecting marines who thought they almost took out the zergling threat. We view it more like another skill, much like many people view APM, Micromanagement and Macromanagement.

So, why does "doing mechanic redundantly" have to be there? Can't it be "make significant decision about production/resourcing?"

I'm not arguing with the need for macro to impose itself on micro and vice-versa. I'm arguing the need for it to happen with mechanics that require no actual thought in and of themselves.

First, there is nothing wrong with redundant targeting. It is a quality that tests a different part of personal skill than the majority of the game.

So, why is rallymining in the game?

First, there is a decision where to place the mule. If we address your original question, if you had a rally point, you'd have to reset the rally to a new mineral patch in order to your expansion which finishes in about 5 seconds. This is a decision that normally isn't needed but the situation is different than paper.

Decision making isn't just "choosing from a number of options." In order for decision making to actually work, at least 2 of those options have to be reasonably viable. If there's one obviously correct choice, and a number of obviously incorrect choices, then there's no actual choice at all.

There's a reason it's called, "The offer you can't refuse."

This is the best argument for macro mechanics I've seen

And yet, it still doesn't explain why we should have to put up with bad mechanics when you can create good mechanics that have the same multitasking effects.

[DemolitionSquid]

Its times like these I'm so glad I was taught proper logic in English and Math at my high school. It seems apart from Nicol, no one else had that luxury.

[ArcherofAiur]

hehehe I knew Gifteds post would rile them up

First, there is nothing wrong with redundant targeting. It is a quality that tests a different part of personal skill than the majority of the game.

This statement from Gifted speaks volumes about how the designers percieve Starcraft. Nicol have you ever considered that Starcraft isnt just a purely Strategy game? That its a Strategy and "repetitive multitasking" RTS.

Also if your wondering how "mindless" multi-tasking can possibly be fun you should try out this game.
http://armorgames.com/play/4369/multitask

[Santrega]

That is EXACTLY what I`m afraid of. That hundreds, thousands of n00bs will let PC into the game, and it won`t be until pros start to emerge who use the mechanic properly (ie. all the time) before you all finally see, "oh shit, Protoss pros can't lose because PC gives them uber minerals and they mass Zealots, but we can't just change the numbers for PC because its nature and power is entirely dependent on Probes, so either it'll never get used because it provides pathetic gains, or always gets used because its gains are too much to be ignored. So now we STILL have to come up with a new way for Protoss to macro and balance it while removing PC."

Your ignorance makes me sick, and sometimes I almost hope that it gets into the game, and isn't caught for a year or two, and then suddenly the entire game is broken when the pros come and I get to laugh at you all for killing SC2.

Isn't how rewarding the terran mule is entirely dependent on how many mules you make? I mean, I don't even need to scan if I build turrets and scout... I certainly don't need to get the supply boost... so why can't i simply use mules every chance I get?

As far as I understand it, the probe boost isnt close to what the mule can bring in per trip, and the mule can harvest at the same time as SCVs...

The only flaw i see in PC is the lack of choice in what to use your energy in the obelisk on, not any sort of overpowering effect.

[ArcherofAiur]

No your missing the point. PC is variable. Therefore it changes depending upon stuff. Therefore it cant be balanced. Here ill give a diagram.

[DemolitionSquid]

Isn't how rewarding the Terran mule is entirely dependent on how many mules you make? I mean, I don't even need to scan if I build turrets and scout... I certainly don't need to get the supply boost... so why can't i simply use mules every chance I get?

As far as I understand it, the probe boost isn't close to what the mule can bring in per trip, and the mule can harvest at the same time as SCVs...

The only flaw i see in PC is the lack of choice in what to use your energy in the obelisk on, not any sort of overpowering effect.

1. MULES are dependent on number of MULES. Spawn Larva is Dependant on number of Larva. PC is dependent on number of Probes. Which one is not like the others?

2. All the mechanics are APM sinks. I've stated as such multiple times. There is no reason to never cast them. But PC is the worst of the bunch because it doesn't compete with anything, whereas Mules can compete with scan or supply drop and Larva compete amongst themselves.

3. If you think "the probe boost isn't close to what the mule can bring in per trip" then you didn't read my editorial. Which I suggest you do if you want to keep playing with the big boys.

[ArcherofAiur]

You cant say SL competes against itself because the decision making isnt for how you use the ability. You use the ability to get more larva. You always do that the same way. Period. Its not like if you cast SL on this hatchery you get drones but if you cast it on a spawning pool you get zerglings.


You decide what to make the larva into only after you have cast the ability. Actually its after the ability is completly over. So no, Spawn Larva does not compete against itself at all.