StarCraft Q&A #2

[Kimera757]

Given the lengthy posts and negative tones in this thread, I haven't read most posts.

All I can say is, at this point (at the end of Wings of Liberty, beginning of Heart of the Swarm), the Kel-Morian Combine is described as not being a viable threat (right in that FAQ). I don't think either the KMC or UP were in a position to conquer the Dominion following Brood War if they couldn't take on Mengsk after Wings of Liberty, what with zerg attacks and how Raynor revealed his genocide plot. Post-BW, with the UED fleet defeated, Kerrigan paying attention to other things and the protoss having no desire to attack terrans without cause, there were few outside pressures on the Dominion.

If any explanation is needed, it's why someone inside the Dominion didn't just kill Mengsk and replace him. (Well, Colonel Hauler tried, but he waited until 2503 to do it. A villain from the StarCraft comic might have been trying the same thing, but Mengsk had a spy in his organization.) Blizzard did mention (although not detail) Mengsk's techniques for hanging onto power.

[TcheQuevara]

What picture? The one I remember shows the city covering a hemisphere if not more.

You're right... I was looking at the picture we have here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/planet/korhal. Building such a giant city in 4 years is unlikely but at least I could believe a city as big as that has "only" 6 billion people, considering huge parts of it must be covered by gigantic industrial complexes.

The in-game image (which you can see here: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Korhal), however, shows that at least a third of the planets surface is covered by the ecumenopolis...

Korhal would be a ghost-town - a ghost metropolis...


This is so wrong now they have to explain 1) the mass migration and how it affected an entire sector 2) why would 6 billion people be more needed in the capital world than in the colonies 3) WHY IS IT SO BIG and unpopulated.

Ggaaah.

This is sloppy, but you know, I don't think many people had figured this until now. They were more worried about how such a big city was built in only 4 years, which I agree with you, is more likely than a big city being evend NEEDED in the first place... So I think this kind of prooves my point that some plot holes are more apparent and damaging than others. I just figured Korhal's numbers are wrong after, as we say here, "looking for the hair in the egg shell". But the size of the ecumenopolis itself streched too much my syspension of disbelief - which could maybe be avoided if I was better prepared for it.

[Gradius]

I will describe one last time the argument for why the UED remnants have as much of a right to be the antagonist of SC2 as the Dominion does.

Mengsk has two ways of holding on to power:
1) Military force. If you disagree, you get quashed. We see examples of this in frontline.
2) The lure and promise for any planet in joining the Dominion is protection against the alien menace. This is the one thing that Mengsk promised his people, and the only reason he has dictatorial powers at all. This is why he works the media angle, to show everybody that they need him.

If it can be shown that Mengsk does not have these two things by the end of Brood War, then it stands to reason that any other powers in the sector have just as much of a right, it not more, to be in power. So let's go over it all again:

1) The UED laid siege to Augustgrad & removed Mengsk from power. It is silly to say that the assault was "just against Augustgrad" when you assault a different site on Korhal in the previous mission. Stukov mentions that Mengsk can't reinforce his numbers, which means they've nullified external threats and have the planet surrounded like any siege.

The UED controls not only Korhal but all other Dominion colonies as well.
"We are here to take control of the Terran Dominion and all of its outlying colonies." This is represented in the game in multiple ways. Braxis. The Dylarian shipyards, etc.

- They have succeeded in this goal:
FENIX
It is strange that this Kel-Morian Combine continues to operate while the UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist. I'll never underestimate the motivational effects of Terran greed again!

This shows that the KMC is raking in cash despite the fact that the UED controls everything. As for this "attack" against the KMC, they raided some resources and then left. Other people would see this as a sign that the KMC can defend itself against aliens a hell of alot better than Mengsk.

2) Korhal gets sacked again when Kerrigan assaults not only Augustgrad, but the outlying fortifications as well:
"Raynor, you and Fenix will strike at the more outlying fortification, while my forces are busy assaulting the main UED base at Augustgrad."

3) Mengsk then attempts to rebuild his Dominion: "I'll be sending General Duke to establish my base of operations in Augustgrad."

Kerrigan then destroys Augustgrad again as well as Mengsk's shots at coming back to power again.
"Did you really think I'd allow you to come into power again?"
"I think I'll leave you here, Arcturus, among the ashes of your precious Dominion."

You guys getting it yet? The Dominion is in ashes.

4) Mengsk is pretty much screwed so he risks everything, calls in all his favors & makes a bunch of concessions, so he can assault Char Aleph. He fails miserably and now he has even less power. The fact that he "returned to Korhal to plan the reconstruction of his Dominion" could be taken as nothing more than one of his megalomaniacal delusions, which is really the whole point of his character. Certainly he can rebuild and go back to his Sons of Korhal status, but not to the Dominion's former extent.

Not only has Mengsk been utterly defeated militarily, he has been defeated politically and shown to be incapable of defending humanity from the aliens. The UED publicly executed his ranking officers; this is the ultimate bitchslap to Mengsk's political power & reputation. His fledgling government has failed, and his former worlds would have been looking to maybe the UED, who give the promise of the protection of the earth colonies and believe in the supremacy of humanity. Or perhaps the KMC, who successfully withstood an alien attack in the Brood War. Or the Umojan Protectorate which wasn't even touched; there's a reason it's called the Protectorate.

5) Finally, Mengsk suffered a giant invasion in WoL. The combined might of the swarm sacked the fringe worlds and were pushing on the core worlds. Mengsk should have been crippled in HoTS, and posed no challenge.

You can agree to disagree all you want, but the fact is that many people noticed this obvious absurdity and it represents a failing on the part of the writers for not taking these clear and obvious military defeats into account. You guys get how this ruins the lore correct? We could sack Korhal again in HoTS and it would be back to normal the next day. If military defeats are so damn meaningless, then who exactly wants to immerse themselves into this story? It's sad that I have more suspension of disbelief watching a multiplayer match than I do playing the campaign. It's supposed to be the opposite.

[Ghostnova]

Damn man you argue a good point. While I'm not going to say the writing team didn't make some mistakes (where the hell is the fenix reference!?!?) I look at it this way. It's been more than ten years since BW and some stuff is expected to get lost in the shuffle. This thing even though its a sequel is technically a reboot. So I personally would have been pissed if mengsk didn't have a badass evil dominion and I had to fight the UED. Or the KMC which was pretty much just mentioned in the game. They were the purple guys in that mission with Fenix. I don't want them to be the main bad guy in my fresh start back into starcraft after ten years.

So I think some of the things they ignore or try and excuse (poorly) are justified by the fact that WoL would be kinda lame fighting terrans that weren't the dominion. That said I would like for the KMC to be more fleshed out and known and then maybe step in as a bigger factor. Does any of what I said make sense?

[TcheQuevara]

the fact is that many people noticed this obvious absurdity and it represents a failing on the part of the writers for not taking these clear and obvious military defeats into account. (...) If military defeats are so damn meaningless, then who exactly wants to immerse themselves into this story?

Though I'll always disagree with Gradius making a point of people with different aesthetic perceptions being less than rational, this sums it up why I think WoL "failed". BW ended on a cliffhanger. We were kept curious for 10 years because we wanted to know what happend after Kerrigan achieved dominance, the Dominion was screwed, and Hybrids were a new and mysterious threat.

For a bad comparison, it's like Vic was alive at Pulp Fiction 2. We see the guy getting shot. Or course he could've survived. But if he is alive at Pulp Fiction 2, we could use some explanation of how this happened, instead of it not being mentioned at all. How the Dominion recovered wasn't even mentioned in WoL. Instead, the Dominion is shown throwing money everywhere. Any writer could expect his audience, or at least part of it, to think it as weird.

[Hawki]

The UED controls not only Korhal but all other Dominion colonies as well.
"We are here to take control of the Terran Dominion and all of its outlying colonies." This is represented in the game in multiple ways. Braxis. The Dylarian shipyards, etc.

There's not "etc." about it. The places you mention? They're the only places we know of. We know the colonies thing is their long term goal, and while we know the UED were in some other places, there's no evidence of them setting up shop on them. To said colonies, the UED is going to be this 'bad thing' that's happened (I'll explain why it's bad later). And to Korhal, the UED's going to be this lumbering giant that casually tore up their lives (somehow I suspect even the UED can't evade collateral damage).

- They have succeeded in this goal:
FENIX
It is strange that this Kel-Morian Combine continues to operate while the UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist. I'll never underestimate the motivational effects of Terran greed again!

No, they haven't. Giving the KMC a pass to operate isn't an indication of control. It's an indication of "don't push us, we won't push you." Protectorate-esque (not the UP, as in, the concept of a protectorate in general).

As for this "attack" against the KMC, they raided some resources and then left. Other people would see this as a sign that the KMC can defend itself against aliens a hell of alot better than Mengsk.

Or it's a sign that the KMC utterly failed, and a raid alone was enough to devastate KMC forces present. A failed defence is a failed defence.

2) Korhal gets sacked again when Kerrigan assaults not only Augustgrad, but the outlying fortifications as well:
"Raynor, you and Fenix will strike at the more outlying fortification, while my forces are busy assaulting the main UED base at Augustgrad."

3) Mengsk then attempts to rebuild his Dominion: "I'll be sending General Duke to establish my base of operations in Augustgrad."

Kerrigan then destroys Augustgrad again as well as Mengsk's shots at coming back to power again.
"Did you really think I'd allow you to come into power again?"
"I think I'll leave you here, Arcturus, among the ashes of your precious Dominion."

You guys getting it yet? The Dominion is in ashes.

Get what? That the fortifications were attacked (which are only mentioned as attacks, we have no idea as to whether they're take and hold or diversionary). Get that Augustgrad was attacked again? Yes it was. That Korhal itself is in ashes? Most likely.

The Dominion itself in ashes? Based on the assumption that the UED gave all colonies the same treatment? Where's the evidence apart from statement of intent? The only evidence we have is one destroyed city, one sacked shipyards, and Korhal.

Mengsk is pretty much screwed so he risks everything, calls in all his favors & makes a bunch of concessions, so he can assault Char Aleph. He fails miserably and now he has even less power. The fact that he "returned to Korhal to plan the reconstruction of his Dominion" could be taken as nothing more than one of his megalomaniacal delusions, which is really the whole point of his character. Certainly he can rebuild and go back to his Sons of Korhal status, but not to the Dominion's former extent.

Of course not to the Dominion's former extent. That's why the UP and KMC are seperate. That's why he's dealing with rebel groups. That's why (arguably) he becomes even more tyranical in order to hold onto his power.

he UED publicly executed his ranking officers; this is the ultimate bitchslap to Mengsk's political power & reputation. His former worlds would have been looking to maybe the UED, who give the promise of the protection of the earth colonies.

Why would former worlds look to the UED? The UED is, if anything, the least desirable ruler. Now since this argument was based on assumptions from the start, my assumption is that the average K-sector citizen isn't going to welcome the UED. Not after the UPL. Not after being banished to the sector, narrowly avoiding genocide. The UED could change this perception, but you can't implement a succesful WHAM policy in a few weeks. The average citizen of Augustgrad is going to know only that the UED came in, invaded them without provocation, and is setting up shop. They get the worst of an invasion, and not enough time for any WHAM to trickle down.

Or perhaps the KMC, who successfully withstood an alien attack in the Brood War.

No, it failed. They can spin the attack as to how they prevented something bigger, but all we know is that the KMC were attacked once, and failed. And the average Dominion citizen isn't going to be reciprocal to the KMC after leaving them out to dry at the hands of the UED. Not to mention that many Dominion citizens are former Confederates who, at least in the Guild Wars, viewed living under the KMC as effective slavery.

Or the Umojan Protectorate which wasn't even touched; there's a reason it's called the Protectorate.

Yes, because it's the smallest power, and doesn't have the means to protect that many people.

You can agree to disagree all you want, but the fact is that many people noticed this obvious absurdity and it represents a failing on the part of the writers for not taking these clear and obvious military defeats into account.

You see how they were taken into account? The whole...ah, screw it.

You guys get how this ruins the lore correct?

No.

There's also enough ambiguity & leeway for Raynor to be the son of Jesus.

Seriously? You're playing that card again. Any character in any fiction can be X, and the only way to prevent that is adopting omnipitant-type POV and specifying that they're not X. Harry Potter could be Elvis reborn for all we know by the same logic, because when the story adopts the POV required, we never get a specification that he wasn't.

Why are the defenses that WoL defenders offer up always so pathetic?

Says the person who said Raynor could be Jesus.

But seriously, it's never a good sign when your argument has to go into insult territory, especially when your argument is based on assumptions and the notion that "this is what I wanted SC2 to be." That's a fine enough line of thought, but it's useless to debate, because what we want is not what we get. We "got" a sequel to BW via HunCraft and I'm certainly glad we got WoL to replace it. Doesn't mean I have to spout out how "but WoL is so much better than X."

"Defending" the story in this way must require all of 3 brain cells and should be considered a form of trolling. Critics have to spend time putting thought and effort into crafting logically-consistent arguments. It must be nice knowing that you can rebuke anything they come up with by resorting to relativism. I repeat, your story could be the worst piece of shit on the planet, and it would still make total sense if I adopted this philosophy.

Oh god, more of that relativism stuff again.

You know, I don't mind the notion that relativism exists in some form. But it seems you're basing your argument on the notion that "I know what is good, and if you don't agree, then you're stupid."

where the hell is the fenix reference!?!?)

In HotS. But I do agree that there should have been some reference to him in WoL, even if just an offhand one.

We were kept curious for 10 years because we wanted to know what happend after Kerrigan achieved dominance, the Dominion was screwed, and Hybrids were a new and mysterious threat.

Actually less than ten given EU, but you do remind me of something. Ghost.

Ghost, as far as we can tell, had a similar plot to SC2. Four years after BW. Dominion rebuilt. Zerg return after dormancy. I find it curious as to how back then, there was no "why is the Dominion still in power?! Why!?" Yet suddenly there's that complaint here. It's like the "prophecy doesn't belong in SC2 argument" only more mystifying because Ghost was going to be an actual game that, spin-off genre aside, was set to be a continuation story as far as I can tell.

But no, apparently some evidence is valid while others isn't. Though I am curious as to how Grad and Turalyon feel about the Q&A in regards to downsizing the Dominion's strength. Personally think it's a stupid move for reasons I've expressed earlier, but I don't call them stupid if they disagree.

[TcheQuevara]

You see how they were taken into account? The whole...ah, screw it.

No, go on. The whole what? I agree with you that BW didn't say Mengsk was crushed to atoms. If WoL started with Mengsk as a mad hobo in the streets of Umoja this wouldn't make sense too. What weirded me is how completely unscarred the Dominion was in WoL's narrative.

Actually less than ten given EU

No EU here until 2010 :_(

Ghost, as far as we can tell, had a similar plot to SC2. Four years after BW. Dominion rebuilt. Zerg return after dormancy. I find it curious as to how back then, there was no "why is the Dominion still in power?! Why!?"

I don't believe we, the audience, are rational. So I make up theory to explain why we ourselves react the way we do.

My theory, as you know, is imperfect storytelling > leading to > weirdness > leading to > some people no "buying" the story and not immersing into it > leading to > no "mesmerizing", making the unrealness and cheesyness and un-creativiness (that are present in ANY story ever told) to be highlighted, instead of hidden.

A good storyteller basically hides how untruthful his story is. That's how lying works too, btw. You play the audience's sense of verisimilitude and with her emotions.


The weirdness, the little things that make people not buy WoL's story, are everywhere. I don't have to repeat them right? If people don't get hooked, a action-drama high fantasy seems like a big lie and lies make people mad.

I think that's why Dominion's recovery wasn't a thing in SCG. Because the little we knew about it hooked us. That, and also, there was no impossible, unlikely and unnecesary turning of a desert into a 6 billion people industrial utopia in less than 4 years Seriously, without the depictions of Korhal we have in WoL people would be much calmer.

That's my theory. Whats yours?

[RetlocLive]

I'm not going to deny that I'm someone who absolutely hates how Blizzard went about the Dominion's post Brood War recovery in-game.

I dislike that when I look at the Dominion is Wings of Liberty, they look like the top dogs, like they have had no competition what-so-ever in a long time. But then you look back at Brood War; just 4 years prior, and all you see is Mengsk getting his @ss whooped anytime the Dominion was involved in the fray.

No rebuilding what-so-ever was seen in-game to make this miraculous recovery believable, even for SCI-FI standards, in my eyes. A couple signs here and there of Dominion reconstruction, or opposing forces attempting to take advantage of his "weakened" state, was all I would of asked for to make their so called "recovery" believable, and I didn't even get a single glimpse of that. I said it before, skip from vanilla SC to Wings of Liberty, and the Dominion's Brood War beatdown would go completely unnoticed...except for perhaps Duke's disappearance.

Then theres Korhal being turned into a megapolis in the span of 4 years from being a nuked Desert planet...ya, I don't need to go into that.

--------------------------------------

[Hawki]

No, go on. The whole what? I agree with you that BW didn't say Mengsk was crushed to atoms. If WoL started with Mengsk as a mad hobo in the streets of Umoja this wouldn't make sense too. What weirded me is how completely unscarred the Dominion was in WoL's narrative.

As I stated, there's two main indicators as to the Dominion's reduced strength. One is that the KMC and UP are not only independent of it, but vying for influence with it, a contrast to the pre-BW days where they were united/allied. The second is the ammount of dissent Mengsk has to deal with, such as Raynor and the Mar Sara Seperatists (going just by what's in the game). Pre-BW, the only resistance group against Mengsk we know of are Duran's Confederate Resistance Forces, and given Duran's true nature, I don't think its formation was really based on restoring the Confederacy and the like, even if its members believed that.

There's also a third indicator from the Q&A that the Dominion is less powerful in that it outright states that the only reason it survived at all was because Kerrigan was going after the artifacts only. I've stated why this bugs me, but as I'm able to face facts (insert snide remark here), I'm willing to accept this, even if I don't like it.

I don't believe we, the audience, are rational. So I make up theory to explain why we ourselves react the way we do.

My theory, as you know, is imperfect storytelling > leading to > weirdness > leading to > some people no "buying" the story and not immersing into it > leading to > no "mesmerizing", making the unrealness and cheesyness and un-creativiness (that are present in ANY story ever told) to be highlighted, instead of hidden.

A good storyteller basically hides how untruthful his story is. That's how lying works too, btw. You play the audience's sense of verisimilitude and with her emotions.


The weirdness, the little things that make people not buy WoL's story, are everywhere. I don't have to repeat them right? If people don't get hooked, a action-drama high fantasy seems like a big lie and lies make people mad.

I think that's why Dominion's recovery wasn't a thing in SCG. Because the little we knew about it hooked us. That, and also, there was no impossible, unlikely and unnecesary turning of a desert into a 6 billion people industrial utopia in less than 4 years Seriously, without the depictions of Korhal we have in WoL people would be much calmer.

That's my theory. Whats yours?

Skipping to the end of your post (don't worry, I did read it), the eucanopolis is stupid no matter how you spin it. I don't think it's indicative of the whole "Dominion is too powerful thing," it's more like this 'thing' that's systemic of it.

But if I had to theorize as to why people dislike WoL? Well, it's pretty much as you said it. But I'm going to go a bit further and wax lyrical a bit. One theory is "your expectations were too high" but that's kind of a cop-out.

Ranking the story quality of the StarCraft games, for me, WoL comes first, SC1 comes second. Why is this the case, you ask? After all, WoL has idiosyncracies in it. Casting the Dominion thing aside, some I can name are the Safe Haven mission, Tychus's role as a spy (it seems an iffy move on Mengsk's part), Tassadar's resurrection (not given enough gravitas, felt kind of unnecessary, even if I understand why they did it) and some of the pop/casualty figures (Kerrigan killed billions in the opening invasion? Um, okay...). In contrast, SC1 doesn't have these logic gaps. There's the odd thing such as how the Mar Sara militia can easily defeat the zerg in mission 3 if you want to, or how New Gettysburg is a space platform tileset for a city (always got the impression it was meant to be a city), and you could argue that the Conclave fighting Tassadar in the middle of a zerg invasion is stretching credulity, but none of this, I would argue, counts as real idiosyncracy, not to mention that the first two examples are gameplay mechanics. You could ask, and be entitled to, why do you consider WoL superior when SC1 doesn't have the above issues?

The reason I do is that at the end of the day, when you consider WoL's net negatives, its net positives still outweigh it. The characters I liked more. The setting was more immersive. The lack of a player character. The missions tied-in with the context of a rebel group whereas there wasn't that same level in SC1, how game mechanics didn't always fit the mission context. The cinematic quality. The presence of a theme ("choice"). If one considers story just as in story, I would argue that SC1's is tighter. But if you extend story to characters and setting, WoL easily comes up on top, ranging from the little things like the jukebox to the fact that invading Char actually feels like an invasion, rather than text saying "zerg invade Tarsonis." SC1, in a word, felt "dry" at times. WoL, on the other hand, had life to it. With WoL, I cared. With WoL, I felt like I was part of the setting, a setting that went past talking heads, green text and cinematics that were mostly irrelevant to the larger plot (e.g. the wasteland patrol). WoL took risks. Sometimes they didn't pay off. But overall, the net positives outweighed the net negatives, and the story/setting/lore was a far more emotionally fulfilling experience than SC1.

To be honest, it's the same philosophy I have with other things, how I consider Diablo III's story superior to that of D2 (story itself has idiosyncracies, but the setting and characters make up for it), or why I consider X-Men 3 the best of the first three movies. A story can have more holes than another, yet I can still consider it better if it's still a net positive, a 90/100 rather than a 5/5 (one is better as a percentage, but I'm more impressed with the 90/100 figure if this is raw marks, and the potential for error). It's why I consider Reign of Chaos to be the best story Blizzard has done because it combined characters/setting/plot without the plotholes (or any major ones), or why Halo 4 is shaping up to be perhaps one of the weakest installments of its series. Nothing wrong with its story objectively, but from what I've seen of the campaign, is basically retreading old ground and not taking any risks. Why I consider Revenge of the Fallen to be one of the worst films I've ever seen because not only is it a plothole-ridden mess, but the characters and action are sub-par as well.

So back to the question, why do people dislike WoL? I think it's because of the issues it has, whereas SC1 was comparatively free of them. SC1 is what got them into it. Fair enough. As I've hopefully conveyed, I can overlook these things if the setting/characters/overall plot is enough to cover for it, and go beyond it. The type of person who'd enjoy Temple of Doom more than Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, to use the Nostalgia Critic/Cinema Snob debate on which movie is weaker.

[Laurentian]

I still can't get over the fact that at least 10 Billion Terrans have died in a 4 year period. How can the Dominion recover from that?