StarCraft Q&A #2

[Hawki]

Well, if its any consolation, I think the UED back at Earth could give the Protoss a run for their money with their big guns.

Probably. But...I dunno, this is subjective, but the UED have always been "humans" rather than "terrans" to me, if that makes sense. When I think of the terrans of the StarCraft setting, I think of them of the K-sector. Earth is never included in that de facto line of thought.

[Gradius]

But regardless, his interest in the temples is established in both WoL and the DTS.

Didn't Valerian have to beg Arcturus to fund his quest for artifacts?

To use an example, take WWII as an example. On one hand, the Soviet Union. Millions of lives lost, infrastructure damaged, etc. On the other, let's say...New Zealand. Small Allied country. Lost far less than the USSR or any of the 'big three/four' of the Allies. By the same logic, a country like New Zealand should have filled in the power vacuum, not the USSR which, despite its losses, had the ability to recoup from them. We have capacity for power on one hand with minimal power/capacity for it on the other.

Your cold war analogy is apt. But guess what, New Zealand wasn't responsible for opposing the soviets in the cold war, it was the United States of mother-freaking America. It stands to reason that the Umojans would have to be equally powerful to stand up to the Confederates.

What am I handwaving away? The Umojans have always been small, they've never fought directly, and if anything, the power dynamic isn't the same as with the Confederacy because the UP was never allied with it. With the Confederacy, it was a cold war scenario. With the Dominion, it's effectively secession and the ability to maintain that status quo.

You're handwaving away the fact that Umoja is effectively 1/3 of the terran civilization in the koprulu sector. You are literally giving these guys no credit at all.

It's funny because you complain about humanity not being able to stand up on its own, so instead of actually making use of Umoja & KMC in the story by harnessing the full power of the other two thirds of terran civilization in the k-sector that we didn't get the opportunity to see in previous games, we're instead left with Mengsk lording over these two factions and making everyone look weaker in comparison because of how utterly owned he got in Brood War.

Wings of Liberty has such atrocious world-building. I don't know why you guys defend this.

Tarsonis is still in ruins, as shown in-game. UP and KMC shown to be independent of Dominion, as shown in game. Rebellion rife against Dominion, as shown in game. Mengsk become the "tyrant who survives by portraying others as tyrants," as shown in game.

Am I missing anything?

Yeah you're just missing the picture of the ecumenopolis of Korhal and the comparison of the shantytown it was in Brood War.

Its simple there that the Dominion was still, even in its state, a much more powerful faction than either the Combine or the Protectorate. They could bounce back up faster because they were still stronger.

No. The KMC was raking in cash despite the attack on their homeworld, and Korhal was sacked twice in BW. Mengsk made several concessions and therefore owed other people money for losing at Omega. He was not more powerful. You can keep parroting that the Dominion was stronger all day long, but the facts are just not there (not that that's a problem, right?)

And?

And your source is suspect. I thought that was obvious when the same group of maps make reference to "the defeat of Santa Claus".

You accept when one is a joke and when one isn't. That space platform wasn't a joke.

As I said before, the sign to earth has no importance due to unknown location if you take it seriously.

1) That space platform is an outlier. Do you see space platforms that large anywhere in StarCraft? Yes, there was the occasional absurdity in SC's maps of the month, but it wasn't until WoL that we started getting crap like New Folsom and Korhal in the actual game itself.
2) That picture of the distance to earth is from "shatter the sky".
3) You dismiss the earth sign because it could be from a melee map. Yet your map is a melee map of dubious canon quality. Double standards.
4) The sign should take precedence over the original 60k figure, because by your own system of logic, it's more recent being from SC2 and the writers can retcon whatever the heck they want. If you disagree, again, double standards.

Either way, it doesn't matter that the Dominion "should" have been weaker, because the writers think otherwise and that's that. It makes sense to me, but not to you. Nothing more can be said.

It only makes sense to you because you insist on filling gaps with non-explanations. Every story on the planet would make perfect sense if I adopted this philosophy too.

What assumes Tarsonis is the most populated one? They still have billions else where and depending upon interpretation lost billions from just the outer worlds in WoL.

We know Tarsonis was basically the Aiur of Terran civilization. It was said to have cities more populous than some planets.

Which were not severe enough to crush the Dominion because they were not as nearly as severe as the Fall of the Confederacy.

Says who? He lost all his colonies to the UED. If the fall of the confederacy was so "severe," then it stands to reason that the KMC and Umoja would be in an even better position to take advantage.

[Hawki]

Didn't Valerian have to beg Arcturus to fund his quest for artifacts?

Sort of. They both wanted the temples, but for different reasons (Arcturus as a weapon, Valerian out of academic interest).

It stands to reason that the Umojans would have to be equally powerful to stand up to the Confederates.

Not really. Even if one country is weaker than another, it doesn't automatically mean that the more powerful one will automatically exert influence/invade said country. Asymetrical warfare is always to be expected with occupation, and it's more of a dis-incentive to remind the more powerful country that they have to get through the gauntlet of symetrical war first.

You're handwaving away the fact that Umoja is effectively 1/3 of the terran civilization in the koprulu sector. You are literally giving these guys no credit at all.

Actually, Umoja has the smallest population of the big three (outright stated). As an example, as of 2504, pop. figures for each of the capital worlds are:

*Korhal: 6.3 billion
*Moria: 4.1 billion
*Umoja: 2.1 billion

Added to the fact that the Dominion controls the majority of terran colonies, and of listed terran worlds Umoja has the smallest list (see the wiki), it's very much conclusive that Umoja is the smallest power, and definately accounts for less than 33% of total population.

It's funny because you complain about humanity not being able to stand up on its own, so instead of actually making use of Umoja & KMC in the story by harnessing the full power of the other two thirds of terran civilization in the k-sector that we didn't get the opportunity to see in previous games, we're instead left with Mengsk lording over these two factions and making everyone look weaker in comparison because of how utterly owned he got in Brood War.

Except he's not lording over them. He 'lorded' over them prior to BW. Post-BW, he's vying with both of them. And considering that the KMC and UP were both involved in SGW, my point still stands.

Yeah you're just missing the picture of the ecumenopolis of Korhal and the comparison of the shantytown it was in Brood War.

The ecumenopolis is rediculous no matter how you spin it. Also more of 'build building' rather than rebuilding as it's certainly gone beyond Augustgrad alone.

And your source is suspect. I thought that was obvious when the same group of maps make reference to "the defeat of Santa Claus".

Actually, Santa Claus was saved.

[Pr0nogo]

Still struggling to see a point in the game where Umoja or Moria and their respective armies assault Dominion territory or repel an assault from Dominion forces.

[TcheQuevara]

I think we should all agree at this point that Santa Claus' support was instrumental for the Dominion's recovery. The ecumenopolis can be explained by Arcturus truly believing in the spirit of Christmas.

Well, I think they already did that with the re-cap in the Installation.

Unfortunately, no. The re-cap doesn't even mention the UED. And even if it did (as the manual does), it doesn't sufficiently explains how the Dominion recovered.

You know, all the arguments you and Hawki are throwing are pretty decent. I don't agree overall, but still. So I don't think one must be stupid to see "good world building" in WoL. I think that when you try to communicate something, and a lot of people misunderstand you, you didn't communicate well. Some people bought Dominion's recovery, other people don't; in my opinion, this is objective proof that Blizzard failed at storytelling. "Failed" is a strong word but, as I stated before, the perceived "incoherence" in WoL (as a sequel to BW) screwed up the suspension of disbelief for part of the audience. I don't think impossible things are bad for soft sci-fi. But you should trick the audience into not noticing the incoherences until it is "too late" and they're already hooked in the story, until some months later, when someone will say "DAE noticed Korhal makes no sense? LOL" instead of "Starcraft is RUINED RUINED"

Going back to the thread: I believe it makes sense the Dominion is the most powerful Terran faction again. The real problem is that it is not even mentioned that the Dominion had to rebuild its power. Shame on you, Hawki. I know a lot of the lore from the wiki, and nothing in the wiki ever made me think Blizzard tried to show any kind of effects of the BW.

It wouldn't be very hard to make it seems like the Sector is recovering from the most terrifying war ever. Regardless of the proportional number of human casualties, in a single year, planet-erasing aliens invaded their sector; than nighmarish Zerg; and then what are probably the ogres mothers tell their children about so they behave, the UED. Making some characters mention the Brood War (i.e.: UED invasion) and its effects here and there would be enough. Not mentioning even once that Earthlings are a terrifying threat, or that Raynor and part of his current crew had already allied to Mengsk (and Kerrigan!) in the past, was very underwhelming for me.

The ecumenopolis looks cool, but it was unnecessary, and really hurts the lore in many ways. Even if Terran industry is almost miraculous (something we never heard of until WoL, and that's my point, how bad it is from a storytelling perspective, not from a "likelihood" one), such a great resource spending, planet-building and the transporting SIX BILLION PEOPLE in a proccess that probably deserted entire colonies and cities all across the sector, so they could... what are they doing there again? Certainly not gathering the minerals and resources the Dominion needs to keep its hegemony. Why did Mengsk need so many people in a single planet? My point is, such a titanic endeavor would be a huge game-changing event for everyone in the sector. And the such mass migration, sorry, this Exodus to Korhal is not mentioned even once? What's the Dominion's population anyway? If it is 30 billion people, then the Dominion moved a FIFTH of its populaiton in less than four years. ACROSS SPACE.

Things like this show how sloppy they were with their world building.

EDIT: omg, this is just a big rant.

[Shadow Archon]

No. The KMC was raking in cash despite the attack on their homeworld,

How much cash?

How much of this was greater than the Dominion's revenue?

How much did this go towards militarily assets?

The ambiguity of the situation gives it far enough leeway.

and Korhal was sacked twice in BW.

To what degree? I only recall mainly the capital getting destroyed, even so, we don't know to what degree it was destroyed by Kerrigan's hand.

Mengsk made several concessions and therefore owed other people money for losing at Omega.

For a small fleet that pales in comparison to his military build-up in the four years. He obviously had the resources to pay them eventually.

He was not more powerful.

Proof of the game directly stating the Dominion was not more powerful than the Combine or the Protectorate? Oh, right, they only mention the Combine once, and the Protectorate not at all, and even so, the Combine and Protectorate were a part of the Dominion for some time in Brood War.

You can keep parroting that the Dominion was stronger all day long, but the facts are just not there (not that that's a problem, right?)

Of course you have some "facts" you could show me, right?

And your source is suspect. I thought that was obvious when the same group of maps make reference to "the defeat of Santa Claus".

No canon policy means everything is canon. If you ignore canon that is not a joke, then why do you care?

1) That space platform is an outlier. Do you see space platforms that large anywhere in StarCraft?

Size is never given, so that's not really arguable.

Though if we go by the 11 kilometer long Battlecruisers from Uprising, there was several stations that could completely hold rows of Battlecruisers fine which would fit the bill.

Yes, there was the occasional absurdity in SC's maps of the month, but it wasn't until WoL that we started getting crap like New Folsom and Korhal in the actual game itself.

Or Mar Sara from Frontline? Or Ghobus from Frontline? Or the 11 kilometer long Battlecruisers from Uprising? Or the moon destroying nukes from Spectre? Or the petaton nukes from the manual? Or the fact that five Banelings are stronger than a MOAB according to the short story? Or the Spy Station from Uprising?

Believe me, Starcraft 2 isn't the only absurd thing in the lore. It was like that far earlier.

2) That picture of the distance to earth is from "shatter the sky".

Okay then.

So, 60,000 light years important to the plot information is of far greater importance than this little doodad. Well, intentional or not, this is an inconsistency, but it shouldn't be taken seriously due to how much it doesn't make sense and because of the use of light years and AUs in the series.

3) You dismiss the earth sign because it could be from a melee map. Yet your map is a melee map of dubious canon quality. Double standards.

No. One is a doodad that has no importance on plot, and one is a map description with an actual background story longer than one sign. Of course it has not importance on the plot and relatively the industry of the factions don't really matter in the case of character development, but it does show that the Terrans have always had crazy tech like that and thus supports my position.

Its not a double standard because they are not the same thing.

4) The sign should take precedence over the original 60k figure, because by your own system of logic, it's more recent being from SC2 and the writers can retcon whatever the heck they want. If you disagree, again, double standards.

No. My logic is not that new lore trumps old lore. My look is that old lore and new lore will agree no matter what and if you think there's contradiction, you haven't digged deep enough yet. Only exactly wrong information that can't work together is a contradiction.

Not a double standard.

It only makes sense to you because you insist on filling gaps with non-explanations. Every story on the planet would make perfect sense if I adopted this philosophy too.

What "non-explanations?"

We know Tarsonis was basically the Aiur of Terran civilization. It was said to have cities more populous than some planets.

Some planets. Not all.

Says who? He lost all his colonies to the UED.

Proof?

If the fall of the confederacy was so "severe," then it stands to reason that the KMC and Umoja would be in an even better position to take advantage.

If they were anywhere near in strength to the Confederacy and the Dominion by that point.

My point is, such a titanic endeavor would be a huge game-changing event for everyone in the sector. And the such mass migration, sorry, this Exodus to Korhal is not mentioned even once? What's the Dominion's population anyway? If it is 30 billion people, then the Dominion moved a FIFTH of its populaiton in less than four years. ACROSS SPACE.

Well, you do have to note that the setting has evolved in scale. Originally, it was like only thirteen Terran Worlds. Then they became the core worlds, and now the Dominion alone has like dozens and so forth.

It wasn't handled well, I'll give you that, but the main problem is that for a city planet like that. Six billions too small of a number.



So..yeah. It doesn't make sense because they don't even need a city planet right now.....

[TcheQuevara]

Haha, you won't believe the coincidence/cross-continental-telepathic-event that just happened.

I wrote a whole paragraph ranting about how Korhal's ecumenopolis would be a big democraphical desert even if if fitted only half of the planet surface. But I went to Blizzard site and I saw a picture of Korhal: the "ecumenopolis" is smaller than the US.

[Shadow Archon]

I wrote a whole paragraph ranting about how Korhal's ecumenopolis would be a big democraphical desert even if if fitted only half of the planet surface. But I went to Blizzard site and I saw a picture of Korhal: the "ecumenopolis" is smaller than the US.

What picture? The one I remember shows the city covering a hemisphere if not more.

[Turalyon]

The ambiguity of the situation gives it far enough leeway.

Not this again. If there's that much ambiguity, surely the prospect of some other opportunistic faction taking over the reigns of Terran power when Mengsk was crippled in BW could also be a probable, if not more likely, outcome right? It doesn't necessarily have to be the KMC - the Sons of Korhal were small-fry in comparison to the KMC and Umojan Protectorate and yet were able to take over the power structure of the Confederates by becoming the Dominion - why couldn't anyone else do that during the bedlam of BW?

The UED dismantling Mengsk on Korhal has the same effect as the Zerg dismantling the Confederates on Tarsonis - that is, the major Terran power is thrown into chaos and is therefore, up for grabs to anyone. Because Mengsk is shown to be systematically de-clawed (and somewhat dim-witted) in BW, it is more unfathomable to believe that Mengsk could've ever gained his power back - especially given that he was only in a position of power (as the Emperor of the Dominion) for a very short time between Sc1 and mid-way through BW - when compared to the likelihood that another power could have just as easily taken over the reigns (once again, not necessarily the KMC - but given their resources, they would have a more solid chance than anyone else at that stage). There doesn't appear to be any other reason for why Mengsk is even still in a position of power beyond contrived circumstance and plot armour.

[Shadow Archon]

Not this again. If there's that much ambiguity, surely the prospect of some other opportunistic faction taking over the reigns of Terran power when Mengsk was crippled in BW could also be a probable, if not more likely, outcome right?

The ambiguity of the status of power of the early governments combined with where the lore is at now, means that the Dominions defeat by the UED and rebuilt status as the top dog Terran power means its perfectly valid for the Dominion to be at where it is now.

Even weakened, to an unknown extent I might add, combined with the fact we have no idea how strong the other factions are, means that the Dominion could have still been stronger than both of the factions combined at the end of Brood War.

Heck, according to Frontline, the Protectorate was being blockaded by the Dominion in 2500, so they still had military power left.

It doesn't necessarily have to be the KMC - the Sons of Korhal were small-fry in comparison to the KMC and Umojan Protectorate and yet were able to take over the power structure of the Confederates by becoming the Dominion - why couldn't anyone else do that during the bedlam of BW?

Because the Sons of Korhal didn't do it via their military strength alone. They used the Zerg to do all of it, and then Mengsk swooped in and took political control of what's left.

The UED dismantling Mengsk on Korhal has the same effect as the Zerg dismantling the Confederates on Tarsonis - that is, the major Terran power is thrown into chaos and is therefore, up for grabs to anyone.

No. Tarsonis was decimated, its terran population massacred. Korhal's wasn't. It was just one power taking over the capital city and leaving and then having the armies allied fight against each other afterwards. Nothing suggests the planet was in any state similar to Tarsonis.

Because Mengsk is shown to be systematically de-clawed (and somewhat dim-witted) in BW, it is more unfathomable to believe that Mengsk could've ever gained his power back - especially given that he was only in a position of power (as the Emperor of the Dominion) for a very short time between Sc1 and mid-way through BW - when compared to the likelihood that another power could have just as easily taken over the reigns (once again, not necessarily the KMC - but given their resources, they would have a more solid chance than anyone else at that stage). There doesn't appear to be any other reason for why Mengsk is even still in a position of power beyond contrived circumstance and plot armour.

Except unless there was no other power that could take the reign. The only other powers that were there, the Protectorate and the Combine, were a part of the Dominion during the Brood War. There is no other Terran power in the Sector. None. Ziltch. Nada. And since we have no idea the distribution of power there and the fact that the Protectorate has not even been brought up in the games, the idea of it being anywhere near an actual equal opponent to the Dominion is laughable. That goes for the Combine too considering the way they act towards the Dominion.

You have to prove that the Combine or the Protectorate were powerful enough to do such a job and have to prove that the Dominion was in the same state as the Confederacy at their collapse. There isn't any info to answer these questions...so you really just have to go along with what they are doing now in the lore. The Dominion had no other threats in the sector after the Zerg's victory and the UED's defeat. It built back up its military power and is now, once again, the top Terran dog.

Mengsk is in power because there was no one to oppose him and he had time to build up his forces again. That's it, and if you don't like it. Too bad. Its pretty much written up in stone.