StarCraft Q&A #2

[Hawki]

What is that, Hawki? I never heard of it. Could you get us a transcription or something?

Not really a transcript, but there's a number of key points off the top of my head that pertain specifically to the Dominion rebuilding/lack of it:

-Mercenaries: Takes place not long after BW (as far as I can tell), the Dominion military in so poor a state that Mengsk has to rely on mercenaries to do his work for him.

-Ghost Academy: Has the prologue of volume 3 devoted to showing the Dominion's 'great leap forward' (militarization, industrialization, etc.)

-Frontline: Various pieces that show the Dominion's stages of (re)growth, such as Mengsk's propaganda war, new weapons of war (e.g. the Viking), dissent/rebels (e.g. Mar Sara). Site short stories do the same, such as the Minotaur-class retrofit, the Odin and the changeling intelligence gathering.

-Dark Templar Saga: Kind of shows the Dominion on the cusp, how Jake and co. get saddled with antiquated equipment at first, but after pulling some strings, Valerian is able to get the cream of the crop hardware wise in the last novel. Kind of a sleeping/emerging giant thing.

So yeah. Off the top of my head.

I think the KMs are not a facior in de-estabilizing the Dominion

So Mar Sara, Roxara's moon, the KMC's sponsership of Raynor don't count as destablilization? Even when they worked together/were in close proximity (e.g. Meteor Station) they hated each other's guts.

Did Mengsk did any progress in the MONTH that preceded the BW? Or did the confedarates started Korhal's metalopolis themselves? If Korhal had at least good infrastructure during the BW, why didn't Mengsk cared about nuking his own planet?

Work on Augustgrad was underway prior to BW. Concerning the nuking, Duran specifically explains that it was because the planet (population aside) was already devastated. Besides, Mengsk uses the standard tactical nukes (at least in game mechanics), not the larger banned ones.

Here's the problem for me. My suspension of disbelief has been tuned to enjoy Doctor Who

Know what you mean. But with Moffat in charge, I have to admit my suspension is often stretched nowadays.

[Gradius]

Completely terraforming planets that were purified in a single year. New Folsom.

You realize that pretty much all the absurdities that you cite as excuses for why we can't take StarCraft seriously all come from Wings of Liberty correct?

I have no idea what your problem with platforms is. If you believe that they can build a battlecruiser, then you can also believe that they can have a fight on top of one. Adjusting some variables to get the population/industry you require to build a space platform does not compare to suspending our disbelief for the actual laws of physics themselves.

And yes, this type of industry made sense in SC1 but does not in SC2, because guess what, 9 of the 13 terran core worlds weren't destroyed at that time, but they are now. Korhal's repopulation & renovation is a total ass pull.

Not really a transcript, but there's a number of key points off the top of my head that pertain specifically to the Dominion rebuilding/lack of it:

-Mercenaries: Takes place not long after BW (as far as I can tell), the Dominion military in so poor a state that Mengsk has to rely on mercenaries to do his work for him.

-Ghost Academy: Has the prologue of volume 3 devoted to showing the Dominion's 'great leap forward' (militarization, industrialization, etc.)

-Frontline: Various pieces that show the Dominion's stages of (re)growth, such as Mengsk's propaganda war, new weapons of war (e.g. the Viking), dissent/rebels (e.g. Mar Sara). Site short stories do the same, such as the Minotaur-class retrofit, the Odin and the changeling intelligence gathering.

-Dark Templar Saga: Kind of shows the Dominion on the cusp, how Jake and co. get saddled with antiquated equipment at first, but after pulling some strings, Valerian is able to get the cream of the crop hardware wise in the last novel. Kind of a sleeping/emerging giant thing.

Several examples of Dominion weakness do not invalidate every other piece of lore in existence which shows the Dominion at their former full strength in the interbellum. Looking at the frontline series for instance:

1) Orientation - the Umojans have to sneak food to their own people in crates because Dominion has an economic blockade on Umoja. Mengsk literally has these guys in a vicegrip by the balls. The biggest joke? This takes place in 2500, which proves there was literally no rebuilding time.

2) Why We Fight - the dominion are literally at full strength here as they launch an invasion to fight for some trivial temple. You'd think that in 2502 (when the story takes place), Mengsk would be more concerned with defending his territories instead of throwing away soldiers at a whim for temples & artifacts.

3) Thundergod & Heavy Armor & Newsworthy - The Dominion continues to innovate & bring out new weapons of war. No sign of rebuilding or weakness here. I don't know why you cite this as an example of such. The Umojan Protectorate in the meantime is incapable of doing anything similar and has to send ghosts to steal plans for the Odin because they are too incompetent & weak to do anything themselves after taking literally zero beatings in the brood war.

4) Last Call. The Dominion, for some reason, has a presence on Meteor Station, a Kel-Morian world. Instead of the Kel-Morians intruding on Dominion worlds which is what you would logically expect, the opposite happens.

[Hawki]

Several examples of Dominion weakness do not invalidate every other piece of lore in existence which shows the Dominion at their former full strength in the interbellum. Looking at the frontline series for instance:

1) Orientation - the Umojans have to sneak food to their own people in crates because Dominion has an economic blockade on Umoja. Mengsk literally has these guys in a vicegrip by the balls. The biggest joke? This takes place in 2500, which proves there was literally no rebuilding time.

Ah, I'd forgotten about that. Yeah, that's a good point. I will say in the manga's defence though in that I got the impression that Colin's storyline was originally meant to happen later than what it was established as with the timeline retcon. But since it's been established as being in 2500...yeah, go figure.

2) Why We Fight - the dominion are literally at full strength here as they launch an invasion to fight for some trivial temple. You'd think that in 2502 (when the story takes place), Mengsk would be more concerned with defending his territories instead of throwing away soldiers at a whim for temples & artifacts.

After Bhekar Ro, I don't think xel'naga temples would be considered "trivial." And in the same year, Mengsk still has to deal with discontent (see Newsworthy), not to mention it's the end of the 'great leap' seen in Ghost Academy.

3) Thundergod & Heavy Armor & Newsworthy - The Dominion continues to innovate & bring out new weapons of war.

Innovation is a sign of rebuilding. A chance to say "if we have to rebuild, lets be smart about it."

The Umojan Protectorate in the meantime is incapable of doing anything similar and has to send ghosts

Shadowguards, actually.

to steal plans for the Odin because they are too incompetent & weak to do anything themselves after taking literally zero beatings in the brood war.

Umoja has never had a strong military, period. It's been stated that the only reason that they've been kept in the game/power dynamic is due to their innovation and intelligence capabilities.

4) Last Call. The Dominion, for some reason, has a presence on Meteor Station, a Kel-Morian world. Instead of the Kel-Morians intruding on Dominion worlds which is what you would logically expect, the opposite happens.

Considering the timeframe (2503), it isn't that unexpected. The Dominion suffered more than the KMC, but it's got more worlds to spring back from.

You know, as Turalyon said, this is becoming a cyclic argument. The main contention is, again, how weak the Dominion should or shouldn't be. I'd say it's an acceptable level of weakness because pre-BW, it was 'healthy,' was united with the KMC and UP, and if there was any evidence of Mengsk's tyranny bar the executions he ordered, we haven't seen it. Come SGW, the Dominion is vying for control with its partner organizations, has to deal with uprisings, has Mengsk enforcing his rule through tyranny and propaganda, and going by the latest Q&A, the only reason it wasn't wiped off the map by Kerrigan is that she was more concerned with going after the artifacts.

Which kind of bugs me, honestly. One thing I got from WoL was that this was humanity's 'moment,' the point where it had shown it could stand on its own, defeating the zerg without a Tassadar to save them. But now? Yeah, that never happened. Humanity is weak, will always be weak, and now we have HotS to further reinforce how weak and pathetic the terrans are. And I can't help but feel this revelation stems from the Dominion complaints.

[Shadow Archon]

You realize that pretty much all the absurdities that you cite as excuses for why we can't take StarCraft seriously all come from Wings of Liberty correct?

The hemisphere one was from Starcraft 1.

I have no idea what your problem with platforms is. If you believe that they can build a battlecruiser, then you can also believe that they can have a fight on top of one. Adjusting some variables to get the population/industry you require to build a space platform does not compare to suspending our disbelief for the actual laws of physics themselves.

They built a space platform that covered an entire hemisphere of a planet. Your talking continent size construction that is similar to the platform at New Folsom hovering over the planet within the atmosphere. That is crazy.

And yes, this type of industry made sense in SC1 but does not in SC2, because guess what, 9 of the 13 terran core worlds weren't destroyed at that time, but they are now. Korhal's repopulation & renovation is a total ass pull.

No. The hemisphere example was done only by one independent planet at civil war, not an entire government. A single group of Kel Morines handled Mar Sara. They've demonstrated in the lore they can build up that fast, regardless if it makes sense in a real context.

[Gradius]

After Bhekar Ro, I don't think xel'naga temples would be considered "trivial."

Why? What is the temple on Bhekar Ro doing for him right now?

And in the same year, Mengsk still has to deal with discontent (see Newsworthy), not to mention it's the end of the 'great leap' seen in Ghost Academy.

Right, because Mengsk is doing things like massacring civilians, not providing aid, and being an all-around crappy leader. His communist rhetoric in Wings of Liberty is a joke for any rational person to buy into, so why is it a surprise that there are uprisings? These uprisings have absolutely nothing to do with stronger opponents seeking to take advantage, and it's a fallacy to use this as support for your position.

Even so, he's got the situation well under control because Newsworthy showed pretty well that such dissidents are considered conspiracy theorists by the general public.

Innovation is a sign of rebuilding. A chance to say "if we have to rebuild, lets be smart about it."

Fair enough. But again, why are other terran factions not doing these things? Why are the "but he can build quickly" excuses never applied to factions that are actually in a position to take advantage?

Umoja has never had a strong military, period. It's been stated that the only reason that they've been kept in the game/power dynamic is due to their innovation and intelligence capabilities.

Yes, but they were once rivals of the confederacy. You can't just handwave that away.

Considering the timeframe (2503), it isn't that unexpected. The Dominion suffered more than the KMC, but it's got more worlds to spring back from.

Which kind of bugs me, honestly. One thing I got from WoL was that this was humanity's 'moment,' the point where it had shown it could stand on its own, defeating the zerg without a Tassadar to save them. But now? Yeah, that never happened. Humanity is weak, will always be weak, and now we have HotS to further reinforce how weak and pathetic the terrans are. And I can't help but feel this revelation stems from the Dominion complaints.

Well it was pretty clear from Brood War that Kerrigan could just sweep the sector whenever she wanted? I think the protoss are in a similar position.

They built a space platform that covered an entire hemisphere of a planet. Your talking continent size construction that is similar to the platform at New Folsom hovering over the planet within the atmosphere. That is crazy.

No. The hemisphere example was done only by one independent planet at civil war, not an entire government. A single group of Kel Morines handled Mar Sara. They've demonstrated in the lore they can build up that fast, regardless if it makes sense in a real context.

When you finally figure out why the excuse of "they can build fast" can be applied to every other terran faction and not just the Dominion, you'll understand my position.

But you're talking about this? http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Northern_Platformers

Those maps of the month also had other nonsense like the "zergrinch":
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Zergrinch

On his final attempt, set some point after the Brood War, after enlisting the aid of some protoss bandit minions, he succeeded in capturing Santa Claus, the individual's "elitist ways having been the bane of our existence". It was a hollow victory however, given the lack of cookies available. In the end, the victory itself was only temporary, the Zergrinch being defeated by the Santa Helpers.

So this obscure map holds up as a justification for the writer's laziness, while the sign to earth I posted way back is just a joke? Talk about double standards. Either way, this obscure map was never in the game, but my sign was, so I don't see why your example should count and mine should not. The problem with arguing with you is that you don't operate under any consistent laws of logic. It's impossible to prove any point or make any headway in a debate with you because your only goal is to miracle up lazy justifications for any problem that anybody can ever think of. It's not an insult, just an observation.

Anyway, the only requirement here is that you try to have at least some semblance of natural story progression by taking these events into account:
1) The destruction of most of the terran core worlds, including the most populated one, Tarsonis.
2) Mengsk's military & political defeats.

Wings of Liberty pretended that this never happened. If that's ok with you because "SC = magic" and therefore the writers can do whatever the hell they want, then you've got even more contempt for Wings of Liberty than I do. :P

[Shadow Archon]

When you finally figure out why the excuse of "they can build fast" can be applied to every other terran faction and not just the Dominion, you'll understand my position.

Its simple there that the Dominion was still, even in its state, a much more powerful faction than either the Combine or the Protectorate. They could bounce back up faster because they were still stronger.

Not to mention that the Protectorate and the Combine don't even make a difference at all to the story in both Starcraft and Brood War to any degree that the Dominion has, and we have no idea when they splintered from the Dominion and the exact division of forces in Starcraft 2.

But you're talking about this? http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Northern_Platformers

Yes.

Those maps of the month also had other nonsense like the "zergrinch":
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Zergrinch

And? You accept when one is a joke and when one isn't. That space platform wasn't a joke.

So this obscure map holds up as a justification for the writer's laziness, while the sign to earth I posted way back is just a joke? Talk about double standards.

Nice Straw man.

As I said before, the sign to earth has no importance due to unknown location if you take it seriously.

As for their "laziness," that assumes that the Combine and Protetorate are anywhere close in terms of military capability as the Dominion....which I don't see suggested anywhere. At this point, they are pretty much a non-factor in direct warfare given how the Combine acts as a Dominion flunkie and the Protectorate's approach to them.

Either way, this obscure map was never in the game, but my sign was, so I don't see why your example should count and mine should not.

Simple. Prove it was in the Korpulu Sector and suggest why it should take precedence over the original 60,000 light year distance.

The problem with arguing with you is that you don't operate under any consistent laws of logic. It's impossible to prove any point or make any headway in a debate with you because your only goal is to miracle up lazy justifications for any problem that anybody can ever think of. It's not an insult, just an observation.

Seeing as in my mind those justifications are valid for me to explain any problems with it.

Either way, it doesn't matter that the Dominion "should" have been weaker, because the writers think otherwise and that's that. It makes sense to me, but not to you. Nothing more can be said.

Anyway, the only requirement here is that you try to have at least some semblance of natural story progression by taking these events into account:
1) The destruction of most of the terran core worlds, including the most populated one, Tarsonis.

What assumes Tarsonis is the most populated one? They still have billions else where and depending upon interpretation lost billions from just the outer worlds in WoL.

2) Mengsk's military & political defeats.

Which were not severe enough to crush the Dominion because they were not as nearly as severe as the Fall of the Confederacy.

Wings of Liberty pretended that this never happened.

No, it clearly has the back story in the installation. The Dominion reasserted it self as the top dog among the Terrans, and I believe that it has enough validation to be plausible. If you don't like that, too bad, because that's what happened.

If that's ok with you because "SC = magic" and therefore the writers can do whatever the hell they want, then you've got even more contempt for Wings of Liberty than I do. :P[/QUOTE]

Again, Strawman.

I didn't say that Starcraft was completely magic, I said their tech was therefore explanations regarding how some of it works is a non issue.

Two, I believe they have given plenty of justification for it.

[Hawki]

Why? What is the temple on Bhekar Ro doing for him right now?

Not much. If he could get his hands on the energy creature though...

But regardless, his interest in the temples is established in both WoL and the DTS.

Even so, he's got the situation well under control because Newsworthy showed pretty well that such dissidents are considered conspiracy theorists by the general public.

Or, you know, slaughtered.

Fair enough. But again, why are other terran factions not doing these things? Why are the "but he can build quickly" excuses never applied to factions that are actually in a position to take advantage?

Because the Dominion still has the capacity to rebuild.

To use an example, take WWII as an example. On one hand, the Soviet Union. Millions of lives lost, infrastructure damaged, etc. On the other, let's say...New Zealand. Small Allied country. Lost far less than the USSR or any of the 'big three/four' of the Allies. By the same logic, a country like New Zealand should have filled in the power vacuum, not the USSR which, despite its losses, had the ability to recoup from them. We have capacity for power on one hand with minimal power/capacity for it on the other.

(No offense to any Kiwis out there in this analogy).

Yes, but they were once rivals of the confederacy. You can't just handwave that away.

What am I handwaving away? The Umojans have always been small, they've never fought directly, and if anything, the power dynamic isn't the same as with the Confederacy because the UP was never allied with it. With the Confederacy, it was a cold war scenario. With the Dominion, it's effectively secession and the ability to maintain that status quo.

When you finally figure out why the excuse of "they can build fast" can be applied to every other terran faction and not just the Dominion, you'll understand my position.

Again, capacity. There's only three major terran factions. Dominion can rebuild. Umoja has nothing to rebuild, but doesn't have the capacity to 'build build.' KMC is in the middle. Enough to maintain independence and vie with the Dominion.

Anyway, the only requirement here is that you try to have at least some semblance of natural story progression by taking these events into account:
1) The destruction of most of the terran core worlds, including the most populated one, Tarsonis.
2) Mengsk's military & political defeats.

Wings of Liberty pretended that this never happened. If that's ok with you because "SC = magic" and therefore the writers can do whatever the hell they want, then you've got even more contempt for Wings of Liberty than I do. :P

Tarsonis is still in ruins, as shown in-game. UP and KMC shown to be independent of Dominion, as shown in game. Rebellion rife against Dominion, as shown in game. Mengsk become the "tyrant who survives by portraying others as tyrants," as shown in game.

Am I missing anything?

Either way, it doesn't matter that the Dominion "should" have been weaker, because the writers think otherwise and that's that. It makes sense to me, but not to you. Nothing more can be said.

Unfortunately, they seem to have listened to the notion that the Dominion "should" be weaker, as per the update. Yay.

What assumes Tarsonis is the most populated one? They still have billions else where and depending upon interpretation lost billions from just the outer worlds in WoL.

I think that's pretty much a given.

[Shadow Archon]

Unfortunately, they seem to have listened to the notion that the Dominion "should" be weaker, as per the update. Yay.

Weaker than the Zerg is a given, seeing as how the Zerg have had the upper hand for four years...it makes sense. It also points out that the Combine is weaker than the Dominion and are not capable of being a big threat to the Dominion. Though it does punch the hope for humans being able to hold the line.

I think that's pretty much a given.

Past arguments with other posters on other boards seem to disagree due to the "Core Worlds invaded" title. That's why I put that there.

[Hawki]

Weaker than the Zerg is a given, seeing as how the Zerg have had the upper hand for four years...it makes sense. It also points out that the Combine is weaker than the Dominion and are not capable of being a big threat to the Dominion. Though it does punch the hope for humans being able to hold the line.

I'm not disputing that the Dominion would be weaker than the zerg, hence why it needed the artifact to end the conflict. It's just that the question pretty much establishes that the only reason the Dominion survived is that Kerrigan was after the artifacts.

This is a gripe for me because while we knew that Kerrigan was after the artifacts from the start, what WoL showed/implied (at least to me) was that the Dominion was holding its own in the greater scheme of things, that it could at least hold the line at the end of the day. But the update spells out that it isn't the case, that it's still no better than the Confederacy in regards to defending humanity. WoL showed how the terrans were ready to stop being victims, but now it's regulated terrans back to being cannon fodder.

Not that I'm arguing terrans need a place in the bigger scheme of things, but it seems to fly in the face of WoL and the lore that led up to it.

[Shadow Archon]

WoL showed how the terrans were ready to stop being victims, but now it's regulated terrans back to being cannon fodder.

Not that I'm arguing terrans need a place in the bigger scheme of things, but it seems to fly in the face of WoL and the lore that led up to it.

Well, if its any consolation, I think the UED back at Earth could give the Protoss a run for their money with their big guns.