StarCraft Q&A #2

[Gradius]

Gradius, I don't see how the UED could have made the Terran population grow fond of them in a month, if in the previous 200 years Terran culture probably depicted Earthlings as monsters. Also, they're invaders.

In a month, no the UED obviously can't win people over. But my point was that they're in control of the outlying Dominion colonies, and Mengsk is not. The writers could have easily spun it so that a large UED detachment was left at each planet. That gives them 4 years until SC2 to win hearts & minds, not just a month.

By itself, it isn't a contradiction. I'm referring to the "zerg were first line," as per manner of control. Complete, total control, with more clamping down to come. The impression I got is that their level of control over the Dominion has yet to reach the optimum level, which leaves room for dissent to form (as opposed to the zerg, which couldn't dissent bar Kerrigan).

Why would you get that impression? Fenix has already confirmed that the UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist, and there are more terrans in the k-sector than just the Dominion, so that explains that.

[TcheQuevara]

Metzen sucks at storytelling. He always has, he's just hit a downward spiral recently.

I'm not sure about this "always has" thing... Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo lore were basically made by him. All of them are some of the most popular video game lore nowadays.

He also surealy has more experience on storytelling than any of us has. I'd be more cautious before saying he sucks and always has sucked. Why do we even care so much about everything he wrote?

You could list a hundred "wrong" things he does. Specially screwing continuity. But these universes he crafted have something people get passionate about. My theory is that he's got a wild talent, but lacks something, maybe technique?, so sometimes he delivers a bad execution. I don't think he lacks knowledge about storytelling... I read his interviews, he seems to know a lot about it.

Maybe he doesn't know enough classic culture. Yeah I mean it. There are reasons why people even took their time to copy the Illiad time after time. In the other hand, maybe his first works were so original because he had no previous standards to limit him.

TL; DR: Metzen is one of the most talented man in his industry, and Blizzard needs to do something to put the crap together in their CD unit.

my point was that they're in control of the outlying Dominion colonies, and Mengsk is not. The writers could have easily spun it so that a large UED detachment was left at each planet. That gives them 4 years until SC2 to win hearts & minds, not just a month.

I never had the impression that they did. Kerrigan seemed very serious about completely wiping them out. But sure, the writers could use them again, and that wouldn't be bad if it was well done. They could also use Mengsk again, and that would be bad if it was well done.

I don't know, the UED winning hearts and minds in the Koprulu sector in 4 years is like the Huns doing the same thing to Medieval Europe.

I think this wouldn't be acceptable by what we knew from SC1 and BW (including the manuals). But surely they could add new information that made it possible*. Then again, if it was well done, it would be great, and if it wasn't well done, we'd be complaining about it 2 years after the game release, just like we're doing right now.

* for example, there could be ideologies in the fringe worlds that prepared people to believe that Earthlings aren't so bad; or that any of the Koprulu super powers, even Umoja, are worse than Earth; or that a situational alliance with Earth would be temporarily good. None of this things are stated in SC, BW, manuals, or the EU, but the Koprulu sector is big and it has 250 years of history, why couldn't a culture like this eventually happen?

[Turalyon]

Man, I'm having trouble keeping up! I try to respond and then come back later to find the whole thread's moved away from what I wanted to reply to.

Anyway, the big question that still seems to be unsatisfactorily answered is why and how Mengsk is still in power after BW. I've mentioned elsewhere that Mengks is the Dominion and, by extension, the Dominion is not to be synonymous with overall Terran power and capability. The Dominion is just the name for the select number of people who make grand decisions for the majority of the Terrans under them.

BW shows the systematic dismantling of the Dominion (Mengsk as a power, not the overall Terrans as a power) such that for Mengsk to still be in the exact same position in WoL as he was after Rebel Yell in SC1 requires (or rather demands) some explanation at the least. The issue is not that it can't be possible for Mengsk to actually be back in power (then again, the only issue with Mengsk being still in power is that it actually completes the devaluing of the UED's impact even more given that they were completely wiped out which relegates BW as a waste of time) but that there's a lack of justification for it when everything in BW heavily implies the complete opposite.

We have to also realise that the Dominion, as a government, was actually in its infancy not only in age but inexperience in governing a massive Terran populace over many worlds. It's rise came from a potentially uncontainable volatile situation and it's reach and influence would have been limited initially because they were essentially starting up with nothing. That the UED comes in a few months later to set their cause back in more ways then one (crippled militarily and politically all in view of the plebs - the backbone of overall Terran power, mind you) would have realistically meant the extinction of the Dominion as a governing body over the majority of Terran affairs. This "governing power" would've been open to anyone who had the strength to take it. It would have been a free-for-all, pure chaos... and yet Mengsk miraculously not only regains his power and positions quickly (after being thrown forcefully to the bottom rung by the UED no less) he builds up the overall Terran power base to unprecedented levels in 4 years that the Confederacy somehow could not manage even when they had more than 150 years of rule.

Offhandedly saying that there was somehow no opposition to Mengsk re-rise back to power BW is a disservice to how the Terrans (they are people afterall) are represented as a whole. By nature, the Terrans are a factional and opportunistic lot. Idealistic crusaders (not necessarily having to be rebellious) with just as much savvy and influence as Mengsk would therefore be a dime a dozen. And this is not even mentioning the sway that more established factions (like the KMC) would have. There is currently no justifiable reason for why no other known or unknown third party wouldn't/ couldn't have taken over without short of saying that the institution of the Dominion is holy or all pervasive and therefore cannot be removed whatsoever. One can only hope that someone sees how facetious and unsatisfying that would turn out to be if that was indeed the reason.

If would be fine if Mengsk being still in power was a direct product of his ability, yet we see nothing of it. Indeed, BW and WoL seem to indicate that Mengsk may actually be much more inept than what we were initially led to believe. We have to infer that because he could "talk the talk" to get into power in Sc1, he'd somehow do the same thing (and then some) again even when all indications point to him being bereft of any real power by BW's end. This inevitably leads one to conclude that Mengsk being still in (let alone with enormous power now as well) is due more to some plot-driven trope-type shenanigans (ie: forced) rather than that something that is supposed to feel genuine/organic/emergent.

Why do we even care so much about everything he wrote?

Maybe it's because the stuff we care about was actually written by someone else (James Phinney)?

[DarthYam]

It was actually stated that before the UED came to town Mengsk had control over Kel Moria and Umoja. The UED invasion caused him to loose both and he never quite got them back. At this point I think they did what Napolean and Squeler did in animal farm. Say that they needed unity in this dark time less the zerg come back, and that any freedom fighters (I doubt he'd use it charitably) would only weaken mankind against the zerg and protoss.

[phazonjunkie]

If would be fine if Mengsk being still in power was a direct product of his ability, yet we see nothing of it. Indeed, BW and WoL seem to indicate that Mengsk may actually be much more inept than what we were initially led to believe. We have to infer that because he could "talk the talk" to get into power in Sc1, he'd somehow do the same thing (and then some) again even when all indications point to him being bereft of any real power by BW's end. This inevitably leads one to conclude that Mengsk being still in (let alone with enormous power now as well) is due more to some plot-driven trope-type shenanigans (ie: forced) rather than that something that is supposed to feel genuine/organic/emergent.

This pretty much sums up my beef in a nutshell.

While TcheQuevara & Hawki made some really good points about how the possibility of Mengsk retaining & regaining power after all his setbacks wouldn't be unprecedented, and while were obviously supposed to think of him as a master manipulator, orator & tactical/strategic genius, the fact of the mater is that that's not how he comes off.
In BW, he was presented as brash, naive, arrogant, and presumptous.
In WoL, he comes of a s a generic, flanderized, mustache twirling buffoon of an evil dictator.

Once again, while the forgoing adjectives are probably not how we're supposed to think of Mengsk, that's how he came off. And in the end, it's the presentation which makes the most impression, and considering how he was presented, it beggars belief in how he's still in a position of total power in spite of all his setbacks.

[Shadow Archon]

Take a break for the weekend and a lot more information to sift through.

I don't think you guys understand how debates work. The SC lore after 2006 was designed from the bottom up with this fallacious notion that the Dominion didn't suffer any losses in Brood War. Hawki gives me population statistics after the fact, knowing that Blizzard probably reduced them to make the Dominion look better. You give me an example of the mutilated lore which shows absolutely zero rebuilding time, and only proves my point. The lore after 2006 is not "evidence" for your position. It's like using the bible to prove the bible. Stop using these dishonest debate tactics please.

What am I suppose to tell you?

I'm fine with the current story and I never got the idea that the Dominion was completely destroyed at the end of Brood War. They took their losses and regained military power from what was left and rebuilt. I'm fine with this.

Furthermore, even if that did count as evidence, it is the games which people play and are important, not these random side-stories. It is between SC1 & SC2 that the disconnect lies. If you have to read extended fiction & side stories before you realize "hey, this isn't total nonsense after all!" then it's too bad, the writing still failed.

Your using information about the Combine and the Protectorate, which generally only really exist in the EU. There's only limited information on them and nothing really suggests what power they have. They could be 1/3 of the Dominion or 1/30. The writers clearly have the Dominion as the strongest Terran power, and that's it. Apparently I can't use current lore because its not evidence because using new lore and thus "crap" lore is "dishonest" but anyways, arguing is pointless.

What? That's what I said, you think that new lore should trump old lore. Therefore the signpost takes precedence over the 60000 figure according to you. You've already admitted your willingness to adopt other clearly absurd ideas just because the writers said so, for example:
1) The 30 million c speed of the Hyperion.
2) The re-terraforming of Mar Sara. Etc. Etc.

No. I believe the lore is equal. 30 million C (as ridiculous as it is) and the re-terraforming (as ridiculous as it is) is canon and doesn't break old lore. You have to try to explain discrepancies the best you can and note when something breaks here or there, that's it.

I know Starcraft doesn't have a good, consistent story compared to other fictions and what not. I know Starcraft makes zero sense a lot of the time. I'm fine with it though, like it, and will try to explain some of the more rather big inconsistencies the best I can in my head.

Because you won't accept new lore, there's nothing else to talk about really.

So why not the sign? Why are the above things ok but the sign is not?

Not integral to the story and just a silly doodad. Yeah, if it was in dialogue, I'd take it more seriously and with anger, but that's all it is.

It's bad enough you resort to dishonest debate tactics,

What's dishonest? Using the new lore to provide evidence for why the Dominion is at where it is now? The Dominion was wrecked but still was the most powerful Terran faction at the end of Brood War and rebuilt. That's all there is to it. Sure, they could have done better with it to explain it more completely, but it isn't an issue for me about the story.

but it would help if you could at least admit to it? You could avoid all this by just admitting that some flaws exist.

I know flaws exist. I just don't have a problem with the Dominion right now.

They could have done better, but I'm fine with it. Can it be explained with the lore? Sure. Does everyone like this explanation? No. Could it have been explained better? Yes. Could another Terran faction be in the Dominion's place? Yes. Would it be hard to explain? Not necessarily.

Obviously the sign is a joke

Yes.

and obviously Blizzard doesn't seem to care too much about logically continuing the story from Brood War.

That's your opinion. I feel that its being handled just fine.

I really don't see what the big deal is. But instead you resort to mental gymnastics and artful dodging.

What dodging and gymnastics?

There is nothing to suggest that the Dominion was completely wrecked beyond repair and there is nothing to suggest that the Combine and the Protectorate could take its place.

You have no consistent logic when it comes to defending the story.

Explain what logic is being broken.

[solidsamurai]

They could have done better, but I'm fine with it. Can it be explained with the lore? Sure. Does everyone like this explanation? No. Could it have been explained better? Yes. Could another Terran faction be in the Dominion's place? Yes. Would it be hard to explain? Not necessarily.

So what you're saying is that blizz telling this story is easy. Why are you defending it then? Don't you desire a more complicated story that requires higher grade writing talent? :P

there is nothing to suggest that the Combine and the Protectorate could take its place.

Besides a mushy plot hole-ish thing that creates somewhat intriguing 'what ifs' with existing material, but is covered up with blizzard's attempts to keep the universe mysterious and thus able to surprise people with a new plot ('no, we can't change this and this! but this and this would be cool...'; more or less the corporate mentality, much like network television or executive producers of a long-lasting cartoon series - that's all blizzard games now, pretty much), when they can't really, because the universe at large was already sorta explained in the original...

Anyway, it's kinda like what blizzard does with World of Warcraft - basically, just introduce a new threat that's 'worse' than the last one (not only can this new one destroy the world, but it can also eat it and fart out confetti; do you want azeroth's children to be turned into confetti? Well, do you?) and that you need to be higher level and have even better gear to defeat, until that threat gets beaten down and there's this big void so that blizzard has to trick us into believing the universe is even larger and that there's yet another threat around the corner. Yep.

Does that not get old to you, or what?

Just imagine, 10 years from now, WoW will go through some kind of 90s revival (the silver age of mmo-ing, where everything is just silly - kinda like silver age of comic books).

[Shadow Archon]

So what you're saying is that blizz telling this story is easy. Why are you defending it then?

Because even though it has short-comings, I still like it. I understand that Starcraft isn't serious in terms of its science fiction mechanics and thus some of the "bigger" problems in my mind are handwaved due to technobabble (Dominion's rebuilt, terraforming Mar Sara, Terran's population growth, etc.) I've learn long ago to not take Starcraft serious in the story department, so I enjoy the mechanics involving the characters and merely go along with what Blizzard suggests happens militarily, industrially, and so on "small things not important to the story." They haven't messed up the Xel'naga or the Hybrids for me, or how the Protoss and Zerg are shown. The main problems seem to stem from the Terrans, and those "problems" aren't problems to me.

I find problems with other things, that too most people are minute, like how the Terrans pull mega-constructs out of thin air. I may list it as evidence for certain things here or there but it grates me nonetheless. Or how stupid it is for a Siege tank to plow holes through a Battlecruiser that is supposedly 11 kilometers long. Or how Battlecruisers seem to be made out of tissue paper in comparison to their Space Platforms or to the Protoss ships. Or how 30 handheld devices can contain teratons of TNT worth explosives in a weird Species 8472 detonation sequence. Or how apocalypse nukes are completely different here and there depending upon the book and how they are downgraded in the Ghost Academy series as common mundane things while on Korhal they were petaton doomsday bombs. And so forth. These are things nobody cares about and I can understand it.

What Gradius had problems with in Starcraft 2, I didn't. I have other problems with the story, like the way Tassadar was handled or how Raynor interacted with Selendis, some parts of Zeratul's dialogue, and so on. The Dominion's rebuilding wasn't one of them and it isn't in such a state that Starcraft 2 violated the Brood Wars.

Don't you desire a more complicated story that requires higher grade writing talent? :P

I have other fictions for that.

Starcraft's story does its job. I can get immersed in it and it does its worldbuilding just fine. Not as good as many others and it does have its shares of flaws. Does that make Starcraft 2 an unworthy and total crapfest? No. I liked it and it fit my expectations.

Does that not get old to you, or what?

Starcraft hasn't fallen to Warcraft's levels yet. I loved Warcraft 2 with all my heart, was generally pleased with Warcraft III, and then had my heart shattered with WoW. It isn't there yet, and hopefully, never will be.

The Hybrids were introduced in Starcraft 1 anyways. They didn't fart out a new threat like Warcraft yet.