StarCraft Q&A #2

[Gradius]

But seriously, it's never a good sign when your argument has to go into insult territory, especially when your argument is based on assumptions and the notion that "this is what I wanted SC2 to be."

Oh boy, it was about time: the last refuge of a loser in a debate, the "hurt feelings" card. As I've told many people (and you specifically), I could care less if you like Wings of Liberty. I also could care less if you don't agree with me. But if you honestly believe that asking for equal footing in a debate is "insulting", then you really are an idiot. Feel free to be "offended" by that, it will be a nice introduction to the internet.

You have criticized and attacked enough games, shows, movies on this forum to know that it makes you look like a giant hypocrite when you try to take the moral high ground. Nobody got offended when you called Prometheus stupid. Try to keep that in mind next time you dish out sanctimonious moral advice.

I remember when we used to have real debates around here instead of this incessant relativism and "boo hoo, I'm offended" nonsense. -_-

Oh god, more of that relativism stuff again.

You know, I don't mind the notion that relativism exists in some form. But it seems you're basing your argument on the notion that "I know what is good, and if you don't agree, then you're stupid."

*facepalm

Like I've said a million times, I acknowledge relativism and understand that it exists. My argument is that by itself it's not a valid debate tactic. The way you guys have been using it, it's nothing more than an attempt to shift burden of proof and should be considered a form of trolling.

There's not "etc." about it. The places you mention? They're the only places we know of. We know the colonies thing is their long term goal, and while we know the UED were in some other places, there's no evidence of them setting up shop on them. To said colonies, the UED is going to be this 'bad thing' that's happened (I'll explain why it's bad later). And to Korhal, the UED's going to be this lumbering giant that casually tore up their lives (somehow I suspect even the UED can't evade collateral damage).

I just gave you a quote where Fenix says they succeeded in clamping down on the sector. Obviously there is no 100% irrefutable proof that it happened, but when they outright state that their goal is to capture Dominion colonies and the UED moves on to their next objective (the zerg) after sacking Korhal, it kind of gives the player the impression that they succeeded.

I am asking for some remote understanding or acknowledgement of my position, not agreement. I already said in my thesis that you can agree to disagree. But you already knew that, you were just looking for more ways to lie & misrepresent my position.

Yes, because it's the smallest power, and doesn't have the means to protect that many people.

uuuuugh -_-

For the fiftieth time, it's the smallest power because Blizzard made. it. that. way. after. the. fact. What is so hard to understand about this ridiculously simple concept? Blizzard made Umoja look weak only so that the Dominion can look strong. This makes all of humanity look weak because of the giant beating that the Dominion took in the BW. In SC/BW we had absolutely no indication of Umoja's total size, hence my 1/3 of the population statement. What's sad is that the population figures for the entire sector might have actually made more sense if they had acknowledged that Umoja deserves to be an actual power in the sector. You posting the absurd population statistics that nobody here buys into does not support your argument, it just makes you look like a pedant.

Why would former worlds look to the UED? The UED is, if anything, the least desirable ruler. Now since this argument was based on assumptions from the start, my assumption is that the average K-sector citizen isn't going to welcome the UED. Not after the UPL. Not after being banished to the sector, narrowly avoiding genocide. The UED could change this perception, but you can't implement a succesful WHAM policy in a few weeks. The average citizen of Augustgrad is going to know only that the UED came in, invaded them without provocation, and is setting up shop. They get the worst of an invasion, and not enough time for any WHAM to trickle down.

We already have an example of people joining the UED because they value their strength: the Dylarian defense forces that were "impressed" into the fleet. We also know the UED uses propaganda. If the people of the K-sector can accept a dictator like Mengsk just for the promise of protection, then they have more reason to trust the UED than they do him.

The UED being the antagonist of SC2 is not "how I want SC2 to turn out". I am using an example to demonstrate that it could have gone either way had the writers so chose because both forces are in the same exact spot at the end of BW.

Get what? That the fortifications were attacked (which are only mentioned as attacks, we have no idea as to whether they're take and hold or diversionary). Get that Augustgrad was attacked again? Yes it was. That Korhal itself is in ashes? Most likely.

The Dominion itself in ashes? Based on the assumption that the UED gave all colonies the same treatment? Where's the evidence apart from statement of intent? The only evidence we have is one destroyed city, one sacked shipyards, and Korhal.

Typical WoL defender rhetoric. Instead of acknowledging or refuting the underlying points, it's just:
1) Well that's just your opinion.
2) There's enough ambiguity here.
3) You can't prove anything.

The rest of your responses can be thusly summarized with these same points. Of course it's "insulting" to even point this out, because that's "offensive". Which of course is just another one of your dishonest debate tactics: play the pity party card whenever the debate goes south.

Though I'll always disagree with Gradius making a point of people with different aesthetic perceptions being less than rational

What's that have to do with anything? The only people who I've ever called "less than rational" are two certain b.net forum trolls. I remember they accused you of the same exact thing, but do you see me bringing it up? :P

Damn man you argue a good point. While I'm not going to say the writing team didn't make some mistakes (where the hell is the fenix reference!?!?) I look at it this way. It's been more than ten years since BW and some stuff is expected to get lost in the shuffle. This thing even though its a sequel is technically a reboot. So I personally would have been pissed if mengsk didn't have a badass evil dominion and I had to fight the UED. Or the KMC which was pretty much just mentioned in the game. They were the purple guys in that mission with Fenix. I don't want them to be the main bad guy in my fresh start back into starcraft after ten years.

So I think some of the things they ignore or try and excuse (poorly) are justified by the fact that WoL would be kinda lame fighting terrans that weren't the dominion. That said I would like for the KMC to be more fleshed out and known and then maybe step in as a bigger factor. Does any of what I said make sense?

Well again, there's nothing wrong with the Dominion rebuilding to their previous Sons of Korhal status. Of course if you switch UED with Dominion in Wings of Liberty and keep everything the same, it wouldn't turn out so great. That's why I advocate writing a totally different story. Not with the UED, just in general.

[Rake]

There is a lot of weakness in the HotS writing, especially populations and construction, but the Dominion bouncing back and remaining dominant is the most plausible part of it.

The question is, are the non-Dominion parts of Terran society more like Poland or more like Japan? To explain, when the USSR collapsed and Poland acheived their indipendence, there was no way that Poland could compete with or try to take over parts of Russia. Russia, though weakened, was still far, far to big.

Japan, by contrast, was able to invade and occupy China when China was weak despite the fact that China was so much bigger than Japan. However, two things made this possible: China was undergoing civil war and Japan had a technology advantage.

Well, the Dominion didn't have a civil war and the non-Dominion forces didn't have a tech advantage, so perhaps the situation was more like Russia-Poland.

That said, it would have been way better if the writers had acknowledged the stress of rebuilding. Perhaps they could have pointed out that the poverty of the average citizen was caused by the massive transfer of resources to the military sector. Or they could have shown lots of construction scenes. Of course, there is no way for them to explain city-planet Korhol.

[phazonjunkie]

I've stated on other occasions that my main gripe is not that the Dominion, in an of itself is still a functioning, viable entity, but why Mengsk is still in control post BW, especially considering the complete ineptitude he displayed as well as his inability to carry through on his promises.

Really, even if he did manage to survive up to the point of HoTS, he by all accounts should be a complete non-factor in the greater scheme of things.

Especially in light of what Tosh says regarding what would happen if Mengsk were killed, there should be no shortage of power hungry egomaniacs ready to step up to fill the void. After his final defeat at 'Omega' such individuals should've been looking at that and practically drooling, seeing such an easy chance to depose him & any remaining senior staff before setting up their own government.

The only reason he is still a major antagonist IMO is because of the 'sunken cost fallacy'. Blizzard & the writing staff can't really think of anything more to do with him, but because they invested so much into him by means of supplemental EU material and whatnot they feel inclined to drag him on as long as possible, even though there really is no need at this point.

[Hawki]

Oh boy, it was about time: the last refuge of a loser in a debate, the "hurt feelings" card. As I've told many people (and you specifically), I could care less if you like Wings of Liberty. I also could care less if you don't agree with me. But if you honestly believe that asking for equal footing in a debate is "insulting", then you really are an idiot. Feel free to be "offended" by that, it will be a nice introduction to the internet.

You have criticized and attacked enough games, shows, movies on this forum to know that it makes you look like a giant hypocrite when you try to take the moral high ground. Nobody got offended when you called Prometheus stupid. Try to keep that in mind next time you dish out sanctimonious moral advice.

I remember when we used to have real debates around here instead of this incessant relativism and "boo hoo, I'm offended" nonsense. -_-

(Insert facepalm here.)

You do realize that I don't give a damn about hurt feelings, right? I don't care what you say about whoever, myself included. But if anything, it weakens your argument when you have to resort to it. Yes, I've criticized stuff, but I don't criticize people? Why? Partly due to the question of civility, but mostly due to the fact that as soon as I enter that position, my own is weakened by default.

I just gave you a quote where Fenix says they succeeded in clamping down on the sector. Obviously there is no 100% irrefutable proof that it happened, but when they outright state that their goal is to capture Dominion colonies and the UED moves on to their next objective (the zerg) after sacking Korhal, it kind of gives the player the impression that they succeeded.

I never got that impression. Statement of intent does not always equal effect of intent. If anything, I'm reminded of Kerrigan's quote:

"You know I'm right Jim, you know what the UED's agenda is. Taking control of the zerg is only the beginning for them."

She also claims that if they don't nip the UED in the bud, "they'll clamp down on this sector and enslave us all." To me, my impression was that the zerg were under total control, but the Koprulu sector was relatively independent. Mengsk had lost his throne, but the Dominion itself existed in a sense. If the zerg were the beginning of control, then it implies that the Dominion had yet to fall under the same level of control.

But hey, just my impression.

uuuuugh -_-

For the fiftieth time, it's the smallest power because Blizzard made. it. that. way. after. the. fact.

It was made that way back in the original manual. It was clear that the Confederates were the top dogs (outright states that with the end of the Guild Wars, the Confederates asserted themselves as the dominant terran power). The pop. figures came later, but the power dynamic was established way back in the day. Now admittedly, it's not stated that Umoja is the smallest power outright, but that was always the impression I got. The Confeds at the top, the KMCs humbled, the UP remaining independent and hoping the Confeds don't give them the same treatment.

the Dylarian defense forces that were "impressed" into the fleet.

In the context, it strikes me as a fancy word for conscripted.

If the people of the K-sector can accept a dictator like Mengsk just for the promise of protection, then they have more reason to trust the UED than they do him.

They could have, but Mengsk had months to implement a WHAM policy. The UED had a few weeks. No matter how good their propaganda might be, you can't win people over so easily in so short a time. Not after being the beligerant in a conflict at least (which Mengsk wasn't, because as far as the everyday citizen knew, the zerg were entirely responsible for Tarsonis).

The UED being the antagonist of SC2 is not "how I want SC2 to turn out". I am using an example to demonstrate that it could have gone either way had the writers so chose because both forces are in the same exact spot at the end of BW.

No, they're not. The UED fleet was entirely wiped out. That's explicitly stated/shown (in regards to DuGalle). Mengsk, at least, survives. Kerrigan, at least, lets him live for the emotional punch. Colonies can be rebuilt. Broken ships can't.

If you want to claim that they're in the same position by virtue of the UED itself surviving (as in, the power body itself)...well, they're not in the same position technically, but I'll entertain the notion of the UED proper coming in, and taking over the K-sector in the interbellum period. If you want to argue that's more realistic than the Dominion rebuilding, that argument can work. The problem is that it's bad storytelling IMO. It invalidates BW, and everything that happened.

I'm aware of the irony that the same argument is being presented that the Dominion rebuilding invalidates BW as well, but if it's a choice of the two, I'd go with the Dominion. It's less contrived for Mengsk to rebuild than for the UED to come in, take over and be presented with "BTW, this happened." Yes, EU material would flesh it out, but again, there was more of a mandate at the end of BW for the Dominion to rebuild than for the UED to return, at least in the immediate sense.

Typical WoL defender rhetoric. Instead of acknowledging or refuting the underlying points, it's just:
1) Well that's just your opinion.
2) There's enough ambiguity here.
3) You can't prove anything.

You've used those points before. That's rhetoric more than anything.

But seriously, what's this meant to prove? Looking at the post...I don't mention your opinion. And for the last two points, you're effectively stating that there's no ambiguity, and I can't prove otherwise.

Alright. Fine. I can't prove that the UED weren't on other worlds (which they were, even if they didn't conquer them). Your Fenix quote has merit, but it's at odds with the Kerrigan quote. And for the final point, I can't prove otherwise. I can't prove that the UED didn't clamp down on anything. I can't prove that Fenix is right, Kerrigan is wrong. Your three points are assuming that the burden is on your opponents to disprove your hypothesis. And when we don't find the proof you claim is there, you say "it's all rhetoric."

Well again, there's nothing wrong with the Dominion rebuilding to their previous Sons of Korhal status. Of course if you switch UED with Dominion in Wings of Liberty and keep everything the same, it wouldn't turn out so great. That's why I advocate writing a totally different story. Not with the UED, just in general.

Then write it.

There. I played the "let's see you do better card." At this point, I'm past caring. I'll read/review it if you want - goodness knows I do enough of both.

Which reminds me. Time for tonight's update on ff.net.

I've stated on other occasions that my main gripe is not that the Dominion, in an of itself is still a functioning, viable entity, but why Mengsk is still in control post BW, especially considering the complete ineptitude he displayed as well as his inability to carry through on his promises.

Really, even if he did manage to survive up to the point of HoTS, he by all accounts should be a complete non-factor in the greater scheme of things.

Hmm...

I can entertain the notion. I'll go out on a limb and say that I'll be surprised/disapointed if Mengsk is still in power post-HotS. While I never got a sense of ineptitude from him, I got a sense of..."oldness?"

I'll put it this way. I don't have a problem with Mengsk being in power post-BW. Narratively speaking, there's precedence for it (rebuilding) plus the lack of any real established characters to fill in the gap. Post-WoL, there's more of a precedent, because we've got an established character for it to happen (Valerian), and more narrative precedent as well (four years of tyranny, Tarsonis revelation, arguably the notion that Raynor saved the day, not the Dominion).

Especially in light of what Tosh says regarding what would happen if Mengsk were killed, there should be no shortage of power hungry egomaniacs ready to step up to fill the void. After his final defeat at 'Omega' such individuals should've been looking at that and practically drooling, seeing such an easy chance to depose him & any remaining senior staff before setting up their own government.

You realize that happened right? Even if the KMC and UP aren't actively trying to depose Mengsk, they're not only willing to support people who want to (e.g. Hauler, Raynor also funded), but come WoL, the situation's the same.

[Rake]

There are all sorts of ways for a dictator to hold onto power after a military defeat. I agree that it is their most vulnerable moment, but that doesn't mean that they have to fall.

[Gradius]

(Insert facepalm here.)

You do realize that I don't give a damn about hurt feelings, right? I don't care what you say about whoever, myself included. But if anything, it weakens your argument when you have to resort to it. Yes, I've criticized stuff, but I don't criticize people? Why? Partly due to the question of civility, but mostly due to the fact that as soon as I enter that position, my own is weakened by default.

Great, where did I explicitly insult anyone? Pointing out that my opponent doesn't follow the rules of a debate is uncivil? Too damn bad. What weakens my position is letting you guys get away with dishonest debate tactics, as opposed to being "uncivil" and calling you out on it.

Your Fenix quote has merit, but it's at odds with the Kerrigan quote.

Not really. The Fenix quote says the UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist, and the Kerrigan quote says that they still have yet to clamp down on the entire sector. Oh wow, that sounds consistent with what I've been saying all along! That aside, the UED being in control was never my main point of contention. This is minutiae that you guys jumped over because you enjoy resorting to the "you can't prove that I'm wrong" fallacy.

My main point of contention was the Dominion getting owned 3 times in BW and Mengsk's failure as a politician to protect his people against the alien threat, with no subsequent follow up or acknowledgement of this in Wings of Liberty. Valid evidence for your position is showing how the Dominion is weaker in Wings of Liberty, not stronger or more populous than their opponents. We already know they're stronger because Blizzard artificially made them that way - that is the problem in the first place.

I've stated on other occasions that my main gripe is not that the Dominion, in an of itself is still a functioning, viable entity, but why Mengsk is still in control post BW, especially considering the complete ineptitude he displayed as well as his inability to carry through on his promises.

Really, even if he did manage to survive up to the point of HoTS, he by all accounts should be a complete non-factor in the greater scheme of things.

Especially in light of what Tosh says regarding what would happen if Mengsk were killed, there should be no shortage of power hungry egomaniacs ready to step up to fill the void. After his final defeat at 'Omega' such individuals should've been looking at that and practically drooling, seeing such an easy chance to depose him & any remaining senior staff before setting up their own government.

The only reason he is still a major antagonist IMO is because of the 'sunken cost fallacy'. Blizzard & the writing staff can't really think of anything more to do with him, but because they invested so much into him by means of supplemental EU material and whatnot they feel inclined to drag him on as long as possible, even though there really is no need at this point.

I'm surprised he hasn't been shot, usurped, etc. Blizzard treats him like he is the only one with a desire for political power in existence. It's like nobody else in the sector actually cares about taking power for themselves.

[Hawki]

Not really. The Fenix quote says the UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist, and the Kerrigan quote says that they still have yet to clamp down on the entire sector. Oh wow, that sounds consistent with what I've been saying all along!

By itself, it isn't a contradiction. I'm referring to the "zerg were first line," as per manner of control. Complete, total control, with more clamping down to come. The impression I got is that their level of control over the Dominion has yet to reach the optimum level, which leaves room for dissent to form (as opposed to the zerg, which couldn't dissent bar Kerrigan).

My main point of contention was the Dominion getting owned 3 times in BW and Mengsk's failure as a politician to protect his people against the alien threat, with no subsequent follow up or acknowledgement of this in Wings of Liberty.

Okay, that's a fair point...sort of.

I say sort of because it can go both ways. On the one hand, I think one could use Mengsk's failures as part of their propaganda, that he failed against the UED, and let the zerg tear into them later. On the other, at the least, his propaganda is aimed directly at countering this, by claiming he's the only defence against "race traitors" (UED included) and the alien menace. The manifestation of his tyrants quote or, as I've said before, the proverbial Animal Farm. As bad a job he might have done, he can always fall back on the "Jones will come back!" line.

Like I said, it can go either way. It's valid anti-Dominion propaganda, but Dominion propaganda itself is aimed at counteracting it.

Valid evidence for your position is showing how the Dominion is weaker in Wings of Liberty, not stronger or more populous than their opponents. We already know they're stronger because Blizzard artificially made them that way - that is the problem in the first place.

Concerning the above points:

Population is moot. We have no population figures pre-SC2 lore, so there's no mark of transition for the Dominion.

Power is iffy too, because there's no raw figures as to manpower/firepower, etc. So I don't know how we know they're stronger. If anything, they strike me as weaker because of direct statements in Firstborn ("since the Brood War, the Dominion had been somewhat less than dominating") and the whole rebel/opposing powers thing, the Dominion not having those issues pre-BW. And again, via the Q&A itself, they've outright stated that the Dominion actually isn't as powerful as we thought.

I'm surprised he hasn't been shot, usurped, etc. Blizzard treats him like he is the only one with a desire for political power in existence. It's like nobody else in the sector actually cares about taking power for themselves.

Oh, they do, but whether they have the means is another issue. An impression I got from WoL is that Mengsk and the Dominion is kind of at breaking point. Over the last four years, things have got worse. Rebellion, clamping down, not to mention an alien invasion that apparently the Dominion never stood a chance against in the first place. Kind of like Syria - Assad stepping down wouldn't stop the rebels, but it might make both sides more willing to negotiate.

Politics aside, that's the impression I got. The Dominion itself can work. Mengsk can't. He could have proven himself post-BW, but he's become the very thing that he was fighting against. It's why I think it serves the narrative by him becoming this tyrant rather than regressing back to a rebel.

[Pr0nogo]

I don't understand why this conversation has gone on this long. One side has points, and the other side has vacancy. Just up and leave. It's been decided.

[TcheQuevara]

Gradius, I don't see how the UED could have made the Terran population grow fond of them in a month, if in the previous 200 years Terran culture probably depicted Earthlings as monsters. Also, they're invaders.

Soviets and Nazis weren't invaders from Outer Space, were ideologically supported by local parties years before their invasions, and even them didn't draw honest support from relevant parts of the population in A MONTH.

When the CIA tried to coup Chavéz in the early 2000s, noone started thinking Chavéz is inefficient to fight imperialism. Actually, the coup both fragilized the country's stability and raised support for Chavéz. All in all, I think leaders that survive coups are generally strenghtened after everything calms down.

why Mengsk is still in control post BW, especially considering the complete ineptitude he displayed as well as his inability to carry through on his promises.

If I write a story about a crime-fighting genius, but everything he says is ratter dull, it is not because there is a plot hole and he isn't a genius. It is because I'm stupid, and I think his nonsense is smart. This may be a problem, but it isn't a plot hole.

Applying that to SC/BW, Mengsk is shown to have a bad temper, and depicable character. He's shown as a petty person - not as a bad strategist. For comparison, Aldaris is shown making bad decisions, as is pre-BW Infested Kerrigan. Mengsk is not once shown as uncompetent.

Especially in light of what Tosh says regarding what would happen if Mengsk were killed, there should be no shortage of power hungry egomaniacs ready to step up to fill the void. After his final defeat at 'Omega' such individuals should've been looking at that and practically drooling, seeing such an easy chance to depose him & any remaining senior staff before setting up their own government.

Oh, as someone from a country with a history of political instability, I humbly beg to differ. You're very wrong. Power hungry people ally themselves to Power. Then they wait until there are "void spaces" in power to achieve higher positions. Beligerant people are stupid, and stupid people generally don't lead armies, corporations, nations or political groups.

Your country is pretty civilized and don't have a lot of regional power hungry semi-medieval "lords". The Koprulu sector seems to be both worse than Brazil, and bigger than Brazil. There's enough room for lots and lots of regional leaders to exist. There's nothing a local despot likes more than a strong central government and stabilizes politics and lets you do whatever you want.

TL,DR: The most dangerous power mongers like stability and play by its rules.


Hawki, what you wrote was the best WoL defense I have read so far. I agree with somethings: SC1 was dry (BW was a huge improvement on that). WoL took risks, and people should give it credit for that.

I don't like how creators react to feedback sometimes... "people are complaining because Raynor talked to a magic Pony, let's kill the Pony next game". No, god dammit, people don't complain about what caused them to complain. If you sell-out your artistic integrity to what the audience thinks they disliked, you're just going to make them ever madder at you, because if you don't follow your guts, the story will suck.

One thing I oppose completely is a love story inside Starcraft. I can't stand the concept. But it came straight from Metzen's guts; as a side effect (IMO) WoL's Raynor is the best Blizzard character ever. So, about nostalgia, yes, they should be brave enough to displease the audience about some things. But if people want a sequel, they want to see continuity, and not just of story, but also themes; some themes got waaay too subtle in WoL, in my opinion. So it is like DMing a campaing, there's the story you want to tell, and the story your players got hooked for. It's not always the same story, and I don't think we can blame any of the sides, although the logic of consumerism habits us to think that neither authors or audience have any rights to have emotional attachment to mass culture products.

[Pr0nogo]

One thing I oppose completely is a love story inside Starcraft. I can't stand the concept. But it came straight from Metzen's guts; as a side effect (IMO) WoL's Raynor is the best Blizzard character ever.

Metzen sucks at storytelling. He always has, he's just hit a downward spiral recently. I don't think that the first game had much merit after they humanised the Swarm by infesting Kerrigan, and the manner with which the UED were introduced only compounded the issue. I still feel that its execution was much better than Wings of Liberty's.