Giving The Hydralisk Back It's Glory

[Triceron]

There's definitely some fine tune number crunching that the devs must have to determine some of these finely-tuned stats to make sure the point values of these units aren't out of whack.

Sure, the Hydralisk, on paper, is much more expensive than a marine for not much more bang. It's even costlier than its SC1 counterpart without a vast upgrade, compared to the Marine which got 5hp boost on top of a +10 upgrade. The Hydralisk got a 25/25 cost increase AND takes 1 more supply than before. But it's still considered balanced in SC2 terms. Why?

I feel it's because with the addition of new units to the Zerg, the Hydralisk's role overall has shifted. In SC1 it was much more powerful because it was one of the only counters to practically everything in the game. Light units, armored units, air units; the Hydra was the go-to unit to take em all down. Aside from the specific hydra counter, the usual answer to most scenarios was 'if losing, make more hydras'.

SC2 has Banelings and Roaches. The combinations with these may seem very simple and straight forward, but the addition of these 'hard counter' units makes the all-purpose Hydralisk more deadly in some ways but it also throws it more into a niche. Hydras are still decent at killing anything. When you're able to soften up armies with Banelings/Roaches, Hydras can deal a lot of damage when not taking hits. Since Hydras aren't the go-to unit to take out masses of light units or armored units, their role in general is diminished to anti-air support or damage padding for your main force.

I agree that the combinations are lackluster, but again I think this problem is more deep rooted in the nature of SC2's design than a simple stat boost could solve.

[Todie]

Hydras can deal a lot of damage when not taking hits.

This is the centrepiece of hydralisk identity really. Strong arguments have been made that the speed-off-creep upgrade "fixes" the unit in a way that allows it to use its range and high damage without getting caught and killed as easily as it used to. these arguments are not easily shut down. im not even sure i disagree with them.

its hard to tell if hydras are not used much because of "deep rooted nature of sc2's design" or if its mostly just deep rooted playstyle/approaches among sc2 zerg players; without a speed-hydra there hasnt been options for and the kind of groundbased kiting or mid-range hit 'n runs with expensive land armies - outside infestor use witch is fundamentally different through being more gas heavy, energy dependant and able to burrow-move.

Im fairly certain that the hydra with the speed upgrade will see more use in HotS than it has in WoL- though it may take some time to start popping up.

whether the unit deserves MORE design-attention or not is a broader question of design and is very difficult to answer without committing to some explicit assumptions - stuff that will be hard to agree upon. Generally, i prefer talking about more clearly defined problems/roles/solutions

[TheProgramer]

I too saw that thread DemoSquid. I agree it said some sensible things. As for my opinion:

I think the hydralisk does have it's place, but suffers from the Roache's existence. What would help the hydralisk was if it was available earlier, but with roaches available early it would give zerg too much power too early.

As for it's upgrades. I think it's range upgrade should cost 50/50. This makes early hydralisk timings no too powerfull (as they would be if the rangeupgrade was already reaserched) but allows them to have their almost neccecary upgrade quickly.

Imho I think the new speed upgrade should require infestor pit, not hive, and I don't know how much the new speed upgrade costs, but maybe it should have a slight cost increase to compensate for being able to get it earlier.

[flak4321]

I think the hydralisk does have it's place, but suffers from the Roache's existence. What would help the hydralisk was if it was available earlier, but with roaches available early it would give zerg too much power too early.

PG, this was a point that was brought up very often during the WoL beta, on these very forums and others. I remember at least 2 Blizz dev reports copied to these forums where Blizz honestly couldn't decide whether to have hydras or roaches early, or both. There was some feeling it would be somewhat OP.

There was also that whole Roach/Rauder/Immortal balancing act that also pervaded this conversation. One of the keys that lead to the Hydra's later tech tree spot is it's role as a ground based hard counter to immortals. Hydras neither suffer from the Immortal's bonus damage nor do they lose DPS to hardened shields. Unfirtunately, this hard counter only exists until Colossi begin emerging, which render Hydras quite useless except if the Hydras have far superior numbers.

This leads me to the thought that the Hydra is now the poster boy for Zerg unit design: comparatively weak, reasonably easy to mass once you have the tech, and only able to do significant damage en masse, like just about all zerg units.

[DemolitionSquid]

I really feel that making Grooved Spines +2 range, or just giving the Hydralisk 7 range outright without an upgrade, would be the biggest thing to help it. Just look at the difference +1 range made for the Roach and Immoral.

[Triceron]

I'm wondering if a range of 7 would make them better counters for spotted widow mines as well.

[DemolitionSquid]

I'm wondering if a range of 7 would make them better counters for spotted widow mines as well.

Of course it would. It would make them better at everything. Range is a massive advantage in the game.

[Carsickness]

I think the problem is availability.

Hydralisk requires Lair. But once a Zerg player gets Lair tech, he has so many more options that validating the cost and wait time for a Hydralisk den could be much better served with something else. The infestation pit, or upgrades for exambple.

So my solution would be to make the Hydralisk available at hatchery tech, but require a Lair to actually build.

For example:
Hydralisk requires evolution chamber, roach warren and Lair Tech to build. Making them available as soon as Lair tech is done.

[DemolitionSquid]

I think the problem is availability.

Hydralisk requires Lair. But once a Zerg player gets Lair tech, he has so many more options that validating the cost and wait time for a Hydralisk den could be much better served with something else. The infestation pit, or upgrades for exambple.

So my solution would be to make the Hydralisk available at hatchery tech, but require a Lair to actually build.

For example:
Hydralisk requires evolution chamber, roach warren and Lair Tech to build. Making them available as soon as Lair tech is done.

I acctually like the idea of scrapping the Hydralisk Den and Roach Warren, and creating a new "Ranged Unit Creation" building at Hatchery that gives access to both.

I had a similar idea, but a bit less drastic. Make Swarm Host require Hydralisk Den instead of Infestation Pit. Everyone loves Infestors because Fungal, so they'd get the Pit even if it wasn't tied to Lair. Now it also gives Swarm Host. That's a huge buff. If the Hydralisk Den gave Swarm Host instead, then players could get the Den for either the Hydra or Swarm Host, and receive the other gratis, buffing the Hydralisk without really buffing the Swarm Host.

[Pr0nogo]

Why the fuck do you always write "acctually"?