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Thread: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video

  1. #91
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Archon View Post
    We see them go in, and in the next very scene there at Auir. There's not a lot of leeway there.
    No, we don't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp-W6icpCbs

    Again, they care not for technical specifics. That's not my fault, its Blizzard, but since its canon, it is law no mater how stupid it is.
    Your 33 million c figure is most certainly not, as there are stars far closer together than 4 light years. Proxima & alpha centauri AB for example are .2 light years apart. Or you could have a binary system even closer together. How is 33 million times the speed of light an acceptable margin of error? You didn't have to come up with such an off-the-wall ridiculous number to make blizzard's idea seem less ridiculous by comparison.

    Exponential evolution or simply the rise of the need for better FTL. If Zerg can potentially be perpetual motion machines (a much bigger offense in my mind) than highly differing FTL speeds in a short time is rather something not beyond them.
    Problems such as zerg units being perpetual motion machines are more easily dismissed because they are part of what require units to function in their core setting. Not that I know any examples of zerg being perpetual motion machines in lore, but still. Highly differing FTL speeds on the other hand break the suspension of disbelief in that they break the setting and allow people to go wherever the hell they want. Case in point:

    DUKE
    Earth Directorate? You mean to tell me you've come all the way out here from Earth?

    Zeratul
    United Earth Directorate? Raynor spoke of the distant Terran homeworld called Earth. These humans have come a long way to make war on us.

    Yeah, not so distant anymore. Suspension of disbelief and realism just went down the shithole, but that's not a problem because Blizzard now caters to 12 year-olds.

    Starcraft makes as much sense as Star Wars, Star Trek, and Stargate.
    I actually watched stargate a few months ago, and no, you can't compare wings of liberty's jolly cowboy time to stargate. Stargate's worst offense is that everyone on other planets speaks english, but the writers themselves said they made it that way because it would be pointless for the cast to spend episodes learning how to translate alien.

    Well, there's nothing that suggests they have a "special" fuel for warp drives. If a ship can sustain Warp Travel for over 28 years, I'm inclined to believe that they have the necessary technology to initiate warp travel just by going off of Fusion reactors, therefore needing fuel for FTL would be like needing fuel for your entire ship.
    Not. The. Point. How do you know his FTL capabilities do not require some external structure which Kerrigan had already destroyed, which would explain why she let him leave in the first place? How do you know Dugalle even started up his FTL engines? Of course it would be stupid of him not to, so why isn't he in hyperspace? If all you need is fusion reactors what the hell is he doing in the middle of nowhere? Seriously, all we're given is a cinematic of him getting chased down in real-space. It takes nothing less than wanton speculation to go from here to the idea that "the swarm has faster FTL than the UED."

    We have a direct example of the journey to Zerus in lore. It's 60+ years. We have no examples of zerg getting access to different FTL technology. HoTS implies that they can now do it in weeks/months. It's a retcon, period, unless you start desperately grasping for straws.

    You can't argue against someone who's only tactics are to make wild concessions and whose only stance is "you can't prove that it's not true". This is just like the Overmind retcon. Nobody could prove that he wasn't secretly being a slave mind-controlled by an external evil power but that he was secretly a good guy all along. It breaks continuity, realism, and therefore suspension of disbelief. You need realism and suspension of disbelief to offset the fantastical sci-fi setting and increase immersion.

    I can't prove that Zeratul isn't Chuck Testa. I can't prove that the Xel'Naga don't look like teletubbies. Tell me ShadowArchon, why do you promote the molestation of starcraft lore? Why do you endorse god-awful storytelling? I'm not talking about just the technical aspect of warp drive speeds here, but the breaking of continuity & realism.

  2. #92

    Default Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video

    Seriously? The worst offense of Stargate is the universal English thing? I'm not saying Stargate is a bad series (bar Infinity...oh, God...) but...ugh.

    And no, I'm not going to weigh into this discussion. It lost any semblence of normality when you played the "everyone who likes this is stupid" card.

  3. #93

    Default Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Yes we do.

    This is the image that follows that video:



    Your 33 million c figure is most certainly not, as there are stars far closer together than 4 light years. Proxima & alpha centauri AB for example are .2 light years apart.
    Alright, .2 light years apart in four seconds. That's twenty seconds per light year. A minute for three light years. An hour for one-hundred and eighty. A day for 4,320. A year for 1,576,800 light years. That's 1,576,800 C there, still in the whole "ridiculous" territory you painted earlier.

    Or you could have a binary system even closer together.
    Of course you have proof that it is a binary system right?

    How is 33 million times the speed of light an acceptable margin of error?
    Because its the closest number to Earth for a comparison. Seeing as there is no stated number, it was simply an assumption to get one. Even if you assume .2 light years, its still a million c.

    You didn't have to come up with such an off-the-wall ridiculous number to make blizzard's idea seem less ridiculous by comparison.
    Wow, you really don't know any of the other numbers from other events of Starcraft tech do you?

    You think this one is bad? Bah, you don't even talk about the ludicrousness that is Mar Sara or Korhal. There's off the wall numbers everywhere in Starcraft, and all of them in some ways "break" the story. If you want "perfection," go somewhere else. The story is still good.

    Problems such as zerg units being perpetual motion machines are more easily dismissed because they are part of what require units to function in their core setting. Not that I know any examples of zerg being perpetual motion machines in lore, but still.
    Oh, so only when science doesn't work in certain ways you don't like is something that upsets you?

    Highly differing FTL speeds on the other hand break the suspension of disbelief in that they break the setting and allow people to go wherever the hell they want.
    And? FTL has always been speed of plot or random numbers thrown out. It has never been a crucial element of Starcraft, not in the long shot.

    Case in point:

    DUKE
    Earth Directorate? You mean to tell me you've come all the way out here from Earth?

    Zeratul
    United Earth Directorate? Raynor spoke of the distant Terran homeworld called Earth. These humans have come a long way to make war on us.
    In terms of power projection over a wide amount of territory, it is a long way. Not necessarily alone in travel time, but how they project their territory. Still fits there.

    Yeah, not so distant anymore. Suspension of disbelief and realism just went down the shithole.
    Bullcrap. Realism went out in Starcraft 1. Suspension of disbelief has nothing to do with FTL in a sci-fi setting, well, at least to me.

    but that's not a problem because Blizzard now caters to 12 year-olds.
    Oh, insulting those that like something you hate? In my mind, that sounds quite like Poisoning the Well to me. If you don't like it, leave it at that. Insulting people who like it is quite silly and immature.

    I actually watched stargate a few months ago, and no, you can't compare wings of liberty's jolly cowboy time to stargate. Stargate's worst offense is that everyone on other planets speaks english, but the writers themselves said they made it that way because it would be pointless for the cast to spend episodes learning how to translate alien.
    Oh, bullcrap.

    Let me point out to you the 200 megaton Hatak blasts and the dynamite Hatak blasts from time to time. Or the Zat's disintegration factor. Or the fact that an alien race was defeated by modern day America through deus ex machinas here and there later in the series. Or the blatant disregard for canon in the end of Atlantis. Or the marty stu doctor Mckay/Carter doing bogus science.

    Really, Wings of Liberty is better by far than Stargate SG-1 at its worse and IMHO better just a bit at its best.

    Not. The. Point. How do you know his FTL capabilities do not require some external structure which Kerrigan had already destroyed, which would explain why she let him leave in the first place? How do you know Dugalle even started up his FTL engines? Of course it would be stupid of him not to, so why isn't he in hyperspace? If all you need is fusion reactors what the hell is he doing in the middle of nowhere? Seriously, all we're given is a cinematic of him getting chased down in real-space. It takes nothing less than wanton speculation to go from here to the idea that "the swarm has faster FTL than the UED."
    Wow, so your response to my speculation going by what we know which helps reconcile the Zerus trip that hasn't happened yet is more baseless speculation just to prove there's a contradiction just to prove how "bad" Blizzard is at story writing?

    I think you missed the point. The point is to reconcile the two incidents with canon, not realism or "what I say could have happened is more important than what you say could have happened."

    We have a direct example of the journey to Zerus in lore. It's 60+ years. We have no examples of zerg getting access to different FTL technology. HoTS implies that they can now do it in weeks/months. It's a retcon, period, unless you start desperately grasping for straws.
    Bull crap. Its not a retcon seeing as it can be resolved with natural tech/biology progression. If it was a Voyager example, I would agree, but it isn't. Your the one grasping for straws to say it is, assuming that the Zerg haven't progressed at all even though there whole motto is to become better. I mean, these are the bugs that become completely immune to Absolute Zero by eating space yetis. Do you really think they couldn't overcome this obstacle?

    You can't argue against someone who's only tactics are to make wild concessions and whose only stance is "you can't prove that it's not true". This is just like the Overmind retcon. Nobody could prove that he wasn't secretly being a slave mind-controlled by an external evil power but that he was secretly a good guy all along. It breaks continuity, realism, and therefore suspension of disbelief. You need realism and suspension of disbelief to offset the fantastical sci-fi setting and increase immersion.
    Of course, one, I take the Overmind event different than you do so to not ruin the character due to my interpretation, and second, am providing events where the Zerg have the FTL to do the required trip, and have better FTL than the Terrans who could also make the trip.

    To me, the continuity, realism, and suspension of disbelief is just fine.

    I can't prove that Zeratul isn't Chuck Testa. I can't prove that the Xel'Naga don't look like teletubbies.
    And? Your changing the argument. Your stating that I'm committing a Proving a negative fallacy, when I'm not.

    I'm going by canon instances of tech/bio progression that simply explain the Zerus trip perfectly to me. If you don't like that answer, make another review that I disagree with. You have that right.

    Tell me ShadowArchon, why do you promote the molestation of starcraft lore? Why do you endorse god-awful storytelling? I'm not talking about just the technical aspect of warp drive speeds here, but the breaking of continuity & realism.
    I don't. Apparently, its your opinion of the story. My opinion is that it is a good story that isn't any more awful than a Doctor Who arc. Strict Realism is out the door when its sci-fi for me, and I let myself be immersed in it.

  4. #94
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    And no, I'm not going to weigh into this discussion. It lost any semblence of normality when you played the "everyone who likes this is stupid" card.
    I've noticed that conversations with WoL story defenders are similar to conversations with creationists in that I'm criticizing something sacred and that their last defense ends up being:
    1) You can't prove that I'm wrong.
    2) You're being offensive.

    This is exactly why I stopped coming here. *facepalm

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    Seriously? The worst offense of Stargate is the universal English thing? I'm not saying Stargate is a bad series (bar Infinity...oh, God...) but...ugh.
    Are you implying that Stargate Infinity fans are somehow...stupid? How dare you? :0

    See, I can do it. Shit's annoying & needs to stop. Thanks. But seriously, you seem like a reasonable guy so you should know what a heated debate looks like (hint: this isn't even remotely it). Don't like it, oh well, I'm getting extremely tired of accommodating you people. \_(ツ)_/

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Archon View Post
    Yes we do.

    This is the image that follows that video:



    I'll let you tell me why showing a picture after a video does not prove that zero time has passed between that point.


    Wow, you really don't know any of the other numbers from other events of Starcraft tech do you?

    You think this one is bad? Bah, you don't even talk about the ludicrousness that is Mar Sara or Korhal. There's off the wall numbers everywhere in Starcraft, and all of them in some ways "break" the story. If you want "perfection," go somewhere else. The story is still good.
    Details that few people will ever see like population & protoss purification numbers is one thing. "What the hell are we doing here on Zerus in the second expo of SC2?" is another. If you can't understand the difference between the two then I don't know what to say.

    Oh, so only when science doesn't work in certain ways you don't like is something that upsets you?

    And? FTL has always been speed of plot or random numbers thrown out. It has never been a crucial element of Starcraft, not in the long shot.
    Obviously everything I said just went over your head. Again, what separates sci-fi from fantasy is the idea that it's based on science and therefore it could be real. Unlike fantasy, sci-fi has less willing suspension of disbelief. Its viewers expect slightly more immersion and therefore more attention to realism. It's not just FTL itself that is important to the maintenance of realism & suspension of disbelief, but the maintenance of the setting.

    In SC, Zerus was clearly established as ancient history, and, being in the fiery galactic core, probably unreachable now after all these ages. The same way that we have no business going back to earth, we have no business going back to zerus. That the conflict has broadened because of the hybrids is not an excuse to go back to Zerus, it's just an excuse to win the conflict in SC2.

    Bullcrap. Realism went out in Starcraft 1.
    So what? Seriously, so what? Everyone keeps repeating this inane adage as if it's supposed to be an excuse for WoL's shortcomings.

    Oh, bullcrap.

    Let me point out to you the 200 megaton Hatak blasts and the dynamite Hatak blasts from time to time. Or the Zat's disintegration factor. Or the fact that an alien race was defeated by modern day America through deus ex machinas here and there later in the series. Or the blatant disregard for canon in the end of Atlantis. Or the marty stu doctor Mckay/Carter doing bogus science.

    Really, Wings of Liberty is better by far than Stargate SG-1 at its worse and IMHO better just a bit at its best.
    Is that it?
    1) Hatak blasts & Zats. Same reason I don't complain about the impossibility of the zerg race. It's consistent, so who cares?
    2) DEMs - agreed.
    3) Dr. Carter. Beats the hell out of Stetman's bogus science. "Survival of the fittest on the cellular level" gave me a good lol.
    4) I'm like 80% through SG1, so no clue about Atlantis.

    I still think SG1 is superior in that at the very least it knows how to do war humor without making a total joke of itself.

    Bull crap. Its not a retcon seeing as it can be resolved with natural tech/biology progression. If it was a Voyager example, I would agree, but it isn't. Your the one grasping for straws to say it is, assuming that the Zerg haven't progressed at all even though there whole motto is to become better. I mean, these are the bugs that become completely immune to Absolute Zero by eating space yetis. Do you really think they couldn't overcome this obstacle?
    I understand your position perfectly. You want to reconcile plot holes. At the very least I would appreciate it if you'd demonstrate some acknowledgement/understanding of my argument. That being: I want to highlight the fact that Blizzard doesn't give a damn and likely never thought any of this through in the first place. This is not the way natural story progression works, but I already made that clear. There are multiple writers at Blizzard that get paid to think about the story for months, and yet retcons still keep coming out.

    Of course, one, I take the Overmind event different than you do so to not ruin the character due to my interpretation, and second, am providing events where the Zerg have the FTL to do the required trip, and have better FTL than the Terrans who could also make the trip.

    To me, the continuity, realism, and suspension of disbelief is just fine.
    That's because you willfully ignore evidence to the contrary, like a direct quote of the length of the trip to Zerus, or the fact that the UED fleet is chased down in real space and likely never got the opportunity to get into hyperspace in the first place. Which is fine, it helps you enjoy the story better, but I hope you understand why some people would get annoyed at the totally unnatural story progression.

    There is no need to argue over this when it's obvious that the people working on SC2 are taking it in a totally different direction and really could care less about making a true successor to the BW story. This fact comes through in dubious retcons, unnatural story progression and bad science. But like I said before, if the intent is to create a new story, why not start a new franchise? Again I ask, what is the point in molesting the SC lore? o.O

  5. #95

    Default Re: Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    I'll let you tell me why showing a picture after a video does not prove that zero time has passed between that point.
    It doesn't prove that days or weeks have either. The point is, there's leeway for Zerus travel time to be perfectly reasonable.
    Details that few people will ever see like population & protoss purification numbers is one thing. "What the hell are we doing here on Zerus in the second expo of SC2?" is another. If you can't understand the difference between the two then I don't know what to say.
    I don't see any difference between the two seeing as how intimate I get with the numbers.

    Obviously everything I said just went over your head. Again, what separates sci-fi from fantasy is the idea that it's based on science and therefore it could be real. Unlike fantasy, sci-fi has less willing suspension of disbelief. Its viewers expect slightly more immersion and therefore more attention to realism. It's not just FTL itself that is important to the maintenance of realism & suspension of disbelief, but the maintenance of the setting.
    Well, this is where we disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarke's third law
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    Throw in space biology and we have salsa.

    To me, I don't care about such strict realism if there's a crazy tech progression to explain it. This seems to be leaning more into opinions than canon though, so I'm not going to argue it.

    In SC, Zerus was clearly established as ancient history, and, being in the fiery galactic core, probably unreachable now after all these ages. The same way that we have no business going back to earth, we have no business going back to zerus. That the conflict has broadened because of the hybrids is not an excuse to go back to Zerus, it's just an excuse to win the conflict in SC2.
    Really? I thought Zerus was always a possibility to come back in the story. Again, opinions here. Where does " we don't have the business to go back to Zerus" come from? Metzen made it, he can do whatever he pleases with it.

    So what? Seriously, so what? Everyone keeps repeating this inane adage as if it's supposed to be an excuse for WoL's shortcomings.
    I don't see the shortcomings. You seem to want realism and world building, but as far as I'm concerned realism wasn't there to begin with. You make it sound like WoL broke the suspension. To me, believing it in the first place in Starcraft made my suspension fine for WoL.

    The only thing I hated in it was the canon choice for Haven due to its stupidity and the VA change for Tassadar. I can personally interpret everything else to fit my Starcraft image just fine.

    Is that it?
    1) Hatak blasts & Zats. Same reason I don't complain about the impossibility of the zerg race. It's consistent, so who cares?


    A stick of dynamite and a 200 megaton blast are never equal. The inconsistency is mind boggling there my pal. Not meaning to poke fun, but jeez does plot save SG-1 all the freakin' time.

    2) DEMs - agreed.
    Okay.

    3) Dr. Carter. Beats the hell out of Stetman's bogus science. "Survival of the fittest on the cellular level" gave me a good lol.
    Sure, in biology. Wait until later, with McKay blowing up a solar system, or his DEMs in Atlantis, or how Carter manages to save the day here and there later on.

    4) I'm like 80% through SG1, so no clue about Atlantis.
    That explains it.

    I still think SG1 is superior in that at the very least it knows how to do war humor without making a total joke of itself.
    Opinions. I think Starcraft is more serious than Stargate IMHO.

    I understand your position perfectly. You want to reconcile plot holes. At the very least I would appreciate it if you'd demonstrate some acknowledgement/understanding of my argument.
    Okay. I understand your opinion on Starcraft. You have a deep care for verisimilitude and certain constant elements. You have that right. I, due to my background, do not think the same way towards fiction.

    Your also right about Blizzard. They don't care about the technical specifics in sci-fi and just label out a number here and there. They only care about the core of their story to a point, and even than there's problems. Tech works via plot, which is why Starcraft is a sponge soft science fiction.

    I don't care about any of this though. I love it anyways, just like Doctor Who and animes. I reconcile what I can, generally the easy main points, and laugh at the side ones. (Restoring Mar Sara? In a year? When it was blasted down to the core? What a great laugh!)

    We just have differing opinions and attitudes toward it. I like WoL, you don't. That's all she wrote.

    That being: I want to highlight the fact that Blizzard doesn't give a damn and likely never thought any of this through in the first place.
    Let me point you Here.

    This is not the way natural story progression works, but I already made that clear. There are multiple writers at Blizzard that get paid to think about the story for months, and yet retcons still keep coming out.
    At least the retcons are semi-debatable. I can get away with explanations that leave no retcons for my personal fanon, and I will argue it with those that think they are simply retcons.

    That's because you willfully ignore evidence to the contrary, like a direct quote of the length of the trip to Zerus,
    Which was a past version of the Zerg and no longer relevant to the Current Zerg.

    or the fact that the UED fleet is chased down in real space and likely never got the opportunity to get into hyperspace in the first place.
    Likely is not definite. They could have, they couldn't have. If they did, it explains Zerus easily. Why bother with a contradiction when ambiguity can fix it.

    Which is fine, it helps you enjoy the story better, but I hope you understand why some people would get annoyed at the totally unnatural story progression.
    I understand that.

    There is no need to argue over this when it's obvious that the people working on SC2 are taking it in a totally different direction and really could care less about making a true successor to the BW story. This fact comes through in dubious retcons, unnatural story progression and bad science. But like I said before, if the intent is to create a new story, why not start a new franchise? Again I ask, what is the point in molesting the SC lore? o.O
    Simple. Disregard current canon if you don't like it. Make up your own fanon and believe it.

    I have differing opinions, so do you. Do what makes you happy with the story regardless of the writers.

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