The Dark Knight Rises

[Hawki]

Quoting VoK's post-black spoilers show up in the boxes without highlights. Spoilers in this post also.

I know what you mean about Bane and Talia. I've never followed the comics and haven't seen that many Batman adaptations bar the movies, but I felt Talia's plan/motives were extremely contrived. She resents her father until Bruce kills him...then turns her revenge to punish Bruce and all of Gotham. I can understand revenge, but this seems like way too much of a swing. As for Bane...yeah, I'm confused. So, he's rescued by Ra's and co. from the prison, joins them, is excommunicated...or was never let in from the start (I forget, given the whole true story thing), then finishes Ra's work...or Talia wants to and uses him...yeah, I think he could have been handled better. Plus his plan is ludicriss, to make Gotham a free city that's doomed to blow up anyway, League of Shadows ethos be damned. At least Ra's had a plan that, while extreme, was employed when Gotham was genuinely a den of thieves. And of course, the convicts know from the outset to go to the houses of the rich. Bane of course knew that they'd follow his state plan and whatnot.

And there was also the final fight scene. Credit where credit is due, I liked the first duel between Bruce and Bane, how while it's clear that Bane is superior, Bruce can still do some damage and puts up a good fight. The second time, it's basically a boss battle how Bruce resorts to "hit the mask" to win. I know, it's his weak point, but still...

Anyway, yeah. Among other things, I feel the villains could have been handled better.

[Noctis]

i enjoyed the movie. each nolan batman is essentially a stand alone in terms of feel. but yes TDKR is more connected to batman begins, but then again this movie is about bringing this bruce wayne arc to an end so i liked the tie ins. The thing about every nolan movie is that he borrows elements from various batman comics and crafts his own story. this one borrows heavily from The Dark Knight Returns series and ontop of that he pulls villains he wants and twists them as well. i give it an A+, its not TDK but i view TDK more as a thriller because thats what the joker is about, a psycho vs batman and plenty of mental stress. this had a more Batman Begins vibe, but really set its own feel. also i cant mark off the movie over the growth and use of the villains because that would mean id have to be anal about how the movies dont follow the comics to the letter either lol.
spoilers:
i thought it clever how the movies ends with john blake (i think a pun on dick grayson and tim drakes names) ends up taking up the batman role, this plays to the recurrent theme that there must always be a batman. it also leaves it open for the story to continue from here instead of needing a reboot. while personally i think tim drake is one of the most important people in bruce wayne's life considering he views him as his heir in all things.

[Visions of Khas]

It's just silly and stupid how some fans have violently been attacking critics of this film. I agree with many critics' reviews, but the rabid fanboys all take up their pitch forks and fires and do their thing.

And on the Joker (spoiler):

I thought Rise suffered from completely ignoring him. He's never mentioned. Once. We know of the crime spree and Dent's legacies. But the Joker himself, as the instigator and catalyst, is never once mentioned.

Nolan mentioned this was out of respect for Heath Ledger. That's his opinion. In my own, I think it's somewhat insulting. Ledger was an amazing actor who, through method acting, became each character. He devoted a great deal to his craft. Rise dances around mentioning the Joker as though the film writer were daintily stepping around egg shells. I winced as dialogue carefully avoided him. So to never mention him both detracts from that character's involvement, as well as detracts from Heath Ledger's contributions. I don't think any actor would want that.

I was at least expecting some Joker-related graffiti in the background, or some punk running around with a clown mask or paint like in the comics. But nope. Oh well.


But that's just me.

[Quirel]

Here be Spoilers. Thou art warned.

Hidden Content:

I know what you mean about Bane and Talia. I've never followed the comics and haven't seen that many Batman adaptations bar the movies, but I felt Talia's plan/motives were extremely contrived. She resents her father until Bruce kills him...then turns her revenge to punish Bruce and all of Gotham. I can understand revenge, but this seems like way too much of a swing.

I'm not sure that Talia or Bane resented her father. Ra's never knew that his wife would be imprisoned in his place, and he never knew of his daughter until she escaped. Probably made for an awkward family reunion, though.

As for Bane...yeah, I'm confused. So, he's rescued by Ra's and co. from the prison, joins them, is excommunicated...or was never let in from the start (I forget, given the whole true story thing), then finishes Ra's work...or Talia wants to and uses him...

He definitely joined up with the League of Shadows, but someone mentioned that he was too extreme for Ra's Al-gul. My guess is that he had the same goal as Ra's, but Ra's wouldn't have liked Bane's method.

yeah, I think he could have been handled better. Plus his plan is ludicriss, to make Gotham a free city that's doomed to blow up anyway, League of Shadows ethos be damned.

Anarcho-communism isn't freedom. Anarcho-communism is the very definition of... Think I messed that quote up.

Anyway, I think that the whole point of Talia/Bane's plan was to make Gotham suffer by turning it into a giant Occupy Wall Street camp. Remove the police and replace them with armed thugs, set up a kangaroo court to process the 'undesireables', make it so that you have to wait in line to get the food that's being piped into the city for free.

The problem with Gotham wasn't just the organized crime we saw in the first two movies, it was the corrupt businessmen, criminals, and politicians. They may have been downplayed, but I don't think that the Dent Act got rid of them.

At least Ra's had a plan that, while extreme, was employed when Gotham was genuinely a den of thieves. And of course, the convicts know from the outset to go to the houses of the rich.

Bane of course knew that they'd follow his state plan and whatnot.

Convicts went to the houses of the rich because they had stuff to steal. But seeing as how equal opportunity criminals can be, I'm pretty sure that there were a lot of people in the Narrows whose lives swiftly became miserable.

As for following Bane's plan, I doubt any of them knew that the nuke was a time bomb.

[Hawki]

More spoilers:

Hidden Content:

I'm not sure that Talia or Bane resented her father. Ra's never knew that his wife would be imprisoned in his place, and he never knew of his daughter until she escaped. Probably made for an awkward family reunion, though.

She mentions to Bruce (paraphrased) that "I could never forgive my father until you killed him." The whole thing of Talia reminding Ra's of his lost wife was too much for him so he cast her out.

He definitely joined up with the League of Shadows, but someone mentioned that he was too extreme for Ra's Al-gul. My guess is that he had the same goal as Ra's, but Ra's wouldn't have liked Bane's method.

Well, yeah. At least Ra's plan was pretty much a bullet to the head. If Bane wanted to follow his plan to the letter, he'd have set off the reactor immediately. Instead, he draws things out and...

I guess that's an issue I had with Bane. Either the whole draw out the suffering thing was Talia's plan to torment Bruce, which diminishes him as a character (remember the last female he was subservient to in a certain Batman movie?) Or, he's not so much an extremist as a sadist. If Bane still thinks Gotham needs to burn, then do it!

The problem with Gotham wasn't just the organized crime we saw in the first two movies, it was the corrupt businessmen, criminals, and politicians. They may have been downplayed, but I don't think that the Dent Act got rid of them.

It's a possibility, but I never really got a sense of that. Apart from the businessmen who wanted to take over Wayne Enterprises, I never really got a sense of a festering heart of corruption or whatnot.

Sure, it's implied. That the Dent Act might have been abused, and there's mention of it being hard to find work, but it all felt brushed to the wayside. So when it comes to the whole Wall Street thing, not only does it feel out of place, but it's with all the subtlety of a brick as well (e.g. the shoe-shining). At least in the first film we were shown how bad things were in Gotham's underbelly. Here, it's more tell.

Convicts went to the houses of the rich because they had stuff to steal. But seeing as how equal opportunity criminals can be, I'm pretty sure that there were a lot of people in the Narrows whose lives swiftly became miserable.

As for following Bane's plan, I doubt any of them knew that the nuke was a time bomb.

Yeah...which makes me also question what Bane actually expected? Does he really think he's making Gotham "better" or is he just Talia's stooge? You're right in that few, if any of his mercs knew about the time factor, but...

Anyway, in the end, I see two possibilities. Either Bane is Talia's stooge and was willing to do everything he did for her all in the name of revenge. Or, he truely believes in what he's doing. And even casting out the whole timer thing, I didn't get the sense in the film that there was enough shown to 'justify' his actions. Not that many could call Ra's actions justified in the first film, but again, we were shown more to back up his case IMO.

[Turalyon]

Finally got around to seeing this movie (better late than never I suppose) and I have to agree with the general sense of 'unease' some of you may have felt whilst watching it.

Of the three films, TDKR definitely feels more "comic-booky", stagey/on-the-nose and less "real" with many moments where suspension of disbelief is not upheld. This article sums up most of the glaring issues quite well.

I think Gna's assessment of having to "ride" with it rather than be "carried" is quite apt.

[Twilice]

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okay, is there any move/game that really satisfies you all?
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[Hawki]

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okay, is there any move/game that really satisfies you all?
...

When you say, "you all," do you mean if there's a movie/game that we all like? Or is this a typo, and you meant to say "at all?"

I ask because if it's the former...well, suffice to say, Turalyon and I might have trouble finding common ground.

[Twilice]

It seems I made lots of typos today in just one single hour. Not just here.

[Noctis]

...
okay, is there any move/game that really satisfies you all?
...

Superman Returns is 100% agreed to be the greatest super hero movie that shall be ever created by mortals.