Warhound Hypothesis: No Purpose in TvZ

[GRUNT]

Just to clarify - Blizzard considered making the Thor a one-of only-unit Back when Warhounds could attack both air and ground. The Warhound was created partly to 'solve' the issue of Thors being too big and cumbersome to deal with certain aerial harass.

In order to not make the Warhound simply a 'smaller Thor', they changed the Thor back to its one-of status and increased its power.

However, I don't think they were happy with how that was playing out and maybe they felt that the Warhound wasn't 'new' enough for an expansion, so the Warhound is now a specialist anti-mech unit. I think it's a good decision, really. I'm not too fussed if the Warhound doesn't show up in ZvT.

[RamiZ]

Just to clarify - Blizzard considered making the Thor a one-of only-unit Back when Warhounds could attack both air and ground. The Warhound was created partly to 'solve' the issue of Thors being too big and cumbersome to deal with certain aerial harass.

In order to not make the Warhound simply a 'smaller Thor', they changed the Thor back to its one-of status and increased its power.

However, I don't think they were happy with how that was playing out and maybe they felt that the Warhound wasn't 'new' enough for an expansion, so the Warhound is now a specialist anti-mech unit. I think it's a good decision, really. I'm not too fussed if the Warhound doesn't show up in ZvT.

Same here.

And btw, welcome back Grunt. Long time no see.

[phazonjunkie]

Thinking about it now, I can't really see what unique purpose the Warhound serves in any matchup; with the sole exception of TvT. It doesn't do anything unique against the Protoss. As far as I know, Terran factory units weren't especially outclassed vs Protoss mech, at least not to the extent that a new unit was really necessary.

The only really unique thing the Warhound does is to (potentially) allow a Terran ground army to A move into a Tank line; so basically you're just paying for the haywire missile, & the ability to survive a tank barrage long enough to deploy it. I really don't see why you'd need a new unit for that. I'd just give the ability to the Thor, or better yet, the Siege tank itself (tank mode only) and give it an HP buff in T-mode, like a battle-mode hellion. It would at least provide some incentive to keep tanks in tank mode/encourage more tank micro, instead of just siegeing up at the first sign of battle.

[The_Blade]

I understand where Blizzard is comming from with the War Hound; but, as PhazonJunkie said, it was not the best option to solve TvT long games. Terrans will need a "dedicated" anti-zerg unit if Blizzard wants to keep the warhound as it is. Ghosts were great, but they were nerfed because the Zerg was unable to micro against snipes. If the Viper's ability also reduces the casting radius for a unit to 1, the ghost should get their old snipe back.

Yes, the Warhoud is completely useless against Zerg and I would never build them on the matchup because of their cost. It is a problem because Zerg have developed new abilities that they might use in all of their matchups while Terran is limited to the old school, well known tactics.

[Rake]

I think a unit not being used in a match-up isn't desirable, but I think it is a least-worst situation. It is better to have a specific unit that plugs a hole than to have a hole in the gameplay.

[Cotcan]

Blizzard did say in the battle reports that nothing is final, so it is possible that the Warhound may be thrown out. It's also possible that it may gain an air attack, but I doubt it as it looks like the got most everything pretty finalized.

[MulletBen]

It doesn't do anything unique against the Protoss. As far as I know, Terran factory units weren't especially outclassed vs Protoss mech, at least not to the extent that a new unit was really necessary.

Have you ever seen mech used against protoss? Not since they nerfed blue-flame, at least, and even then it wasn't very good. Immortals can tear through tanks, colossi can splash on hellions, and of course zealots can either run in or drop in and kill everything. Mech was okay for a while, but the thor nerf plus the hellion nerf means that mech just has far too many good counters and not a lot of good ways to deal with them.
Keep in mind that haywire missiles are a spell, meaning they will cut right through the immortal's hardened shield. I'm not sure I agree with that, seeing as how immortals are supposed to be designed to counter mech, and thors already have the ability to kill immortals with their strike cannons, but nevertheless this offers an alternative, if not better solution. It will certainly be cheaper and available earlier. Now, between thors, tanks, battlehellions, thors, and vikings, there should be an answer to everything protoss has, which just leaves it to balancing.

I understand where Blizzard is comming from with the War Hound; but, as PhazonJunkie said, it was not the best option to solve TvT long games. Terrans will need a "dedicated" anti-zerg unit if Blizzard wants to keep the warhound as it is. Ghosts were great, but they were nerfed because the Zerg was unable to micro against snipes. If the Viper's ability also reduces the casting radius for a unit to 1, the ghost should get their old snipe back.

Yes, the Warhoud is completely useless against Zerg and I would never build them on the matchup because of their cost. It is a problem because Zerg have developed new abilities that they might use in all of their matchups while Terran is limited to the old school, well known tactics.

I disagree with all of this. I see no reason why Terran needs a dedicated anti-zerg unit, no reason why ghosts should get their old snipe back, no reason why Widow mines and battle hellions will not add anything to terrans strategies.

I think a unit not being used in a match-up isn't desirable, but I think it is a least-worst situation. It is better to have a specific unit that plugs a hole than to have a hole in the gameplay.

^this

[phazonjunkie]

Have you ever seen mech used against protoss? Not since they nerfed blue-flame, at least, and even then it wasn't very good. Immortals can tear through tanks, colossi can splash on hellions, and of course zealots can either run in or drop in and kill everything. Mech was okay for a while, but the thor nerf plus the hellion nerf means that mech just has far too many good counters and not a lot of good ways to deal with them.

No, terran mech had a single protoss mech counter that it really had to worry about: the Immortal. Problem was, it countered EVERYTHING that came
out of the factory. Terran mech got a slight reprieve when the Thor's energy bar was removed in one patch, but it was put right back in the next. Some obscure rarely seen strike cannon rush that had protoss players up in arms. Even then, with the inclusion of proper supporting units like ghosts or ravens (which you really should be building anyway against protoss) Terran mech should've been more than capable of dealing with protoss robo w/o another factory unit.

If anything, the missile could potentially create more problems than it solves, as it could potentially shut down protoss robo, in which the situation would simply be switched around, with protoss mech being unable to deal with factory base builds.

Keep in mind that haywire missiles are a spell,

That was kinda my point. Why would you have to introduce a new unit that is uninspired and doesn't really offer anything new in terms of gameplay just for a spell that is highly situational and utterly useless in at least a third of all match ups? Just give the spell to an existing unit.

Now, between thors, tanks, battlehellions, thors, and vikings, there should be an answer to everything protoss has, which just leaves it to balancing

Why should a single production building be able to counter an entire tech tree? A pure gateway or pure robo would be inadvisable in most situations, why should the factory be any different?

[MulletBen]

No, terran mech had a single protoss mech counter that it really had to worry about: the Immortal. Problem was, it countered EVERYTHING that came
out of the factory. Terran mech got a slight reprieve when the Thor's energy bar was removed in one patch, but it was put right back in the next. Some obscure rarely seen strike cannon rush that had protoss players up in arms. Even then, with the inclusion of proper supporting units like ghosts or ravens (which you really should be building anyway against protoss) Terran mech should've been more than capable of dealing with protoss robo w/o another factory unit.

Ghosts have terrible synergy with mech. With bio, you can EMP the army, then stim forward and force an engagement, unless the protoss uses some clever forcefielding to get himself away. On the other hand, if you EMP an army when you have mech, the protoss is just going to run, and there's nothing mech units can do to try to catch up. Ravens are largely unexplored, and have powerful spells like seeker missile, auto turrets, and point defense drones; none of which would be particularly effective against the units that are good against mech. Right now, zealots and immortals counter tanks, colossus counter hellions, high templar counter everything, void rays counter thors pretty well, and will of course kill everything once the anti-air is down. Not to mention that warp prism drops can be incredibly hard to deal with and can pull mech armies out of position. Terran mech in WoL consists of 3 factory units, as well as vikings if you want to do anything about drops, colossus, void rays, etc. Like bio, if you make too many vikings and not enough ground units, you have wasted army supply (not to mention money). Only with mech, you can't run from an engagement, and mech is already so weak against toss that you need all the army you can get.

If anything, the missile could potentially create more problems than it solves, as it could potentially shut down protoss robo, in which the situation would simply be switched around, with protoss mech being unable to deal with factory base builds.

At which point the the protoss would just have to get creative with the billion other things they have that are good against mech.

That was kinda my point. Why would you have to introduce a new unit that is uninspired and doesn't really offer anything new in terms of gameplay just for a spell that is highly situational and utterly useless in at least a third of all match ups? Just give the spell to an existing unit.

So you would rather terran have one unit that counters a whole bunch of things, rather than one unit that counters a small number of things? One factory unit to counter all kinds of different protoss units, as opposed to 2 units to counter 2 very different things?

Why should a single production building be able to counter an entire tech tree? A pure gateway or pure robo would be inadvisable in most situations, why should the factory be any different?

Zerg has one production building that counters everything from every race. Terran isn't protoss, and never has been, and never should be. They play differently, and they should play differently. There is a reason that all protoss ground units share the same upgrades: they are designed to be used together. Protoss has 3 tech paths that revolve around the three core gateway units. No one would ever suggest a stargate/robo army, or a high templar/archon/stargate army, or any other combination of units without zealots or stalkers or sentries. The factory should be different because Terran should be different.

[phazonjunkie]

I hear what you're saying, and you make some really good points.

I'm not neccessarily opposed to the idea of new factory units. (I think the widow mine shows a lot of potential for example) it's just that the Warhound, w/o haywire missile (or even WITH it) just looks and feels uninspired & reduntant, especially when contrasted with other interesting new units like the Tempest or Swarm host. That's all I'm saying.