TeamLiquid Macromanagement Article

[ArcherofAiur]

IMO I think all Econ Macroing abilities and things relating to mining and or gassing, should be REMOVED! It doesn't feel StarCrafty at ALL..

Yah lets have a game with no economic competition where everyone has the same size army and the one who psi storms better wins.


Actually that would probably be alittle boring, they should add heroes as well.

[trace wm]

Why isn't the old way of taking and holding expansions enough for resource macro (along with the perceived gas shortage with the two geyser system)? Just because they added in auto-mining doesn't mean they need to add in something else resource related.

[ArcherofAiur]

Why isn't the old way of taking and holding expansions enough for resource macro (along with the perceived gas shortage with the two geyser system)? Just because they added in auto-mining doesn't mean they need to add in something else resource related.

The best way to figure out these things is to look at other RTS games that have done this and what the effect has been. Allot of RTS have abandoned macro style play. You can tell how it changes the nature of the game.]

Now if you wanted to make an all micro RTS (WC4!) then that would be fine. In fact it would be fun. You could also make an all macro RTS like Supreme Commander. And that would be fun too.

But it niether of these gametypes would produce the same gameplay as a micro/macro game like Starcraft.

[trace wm]

The best way to figure out these things is to look at other RTS games that have done this and what the effect has been. Allot of RTS have abandoned macro style play. You can tell how it changes the nature of the game.]

Now if you wanted to make an all micro RTS (WC4!) then that would be fine. In fact it would be fun. You could also make an all macro RTS like Supreme Commander. And that would be fun too.

But it niether of these gametypes would produce the same gameplay as a micro/macro game like Starcraft.

So you're saying with the minor auto-mining tweak the very fundamentals of Brood War change?

[ArcherofAiur]

So you're saying with the minor auto-mining tweak the very fundamentals of Brood War change?

Only the most fundamental aspect. Bigger vs Better armies. That tiny tiny detail of SCVs not being able to mine when rallied was huge. That tiny little detail of not being able to select more than one building changed the very nature of the game.

For the record I support automining. I think there were problems with the old worker mechanic. But you havnt solved the core problem: A deficency of decision making in the underlying economic model. Youve put a brand new roof on the house but your basements still flooded.

[supersonic]

Yah lets have a game with no economic competition where everyone has the same size army and the one who psi storms better wins.


Actually that would probably be alittle boring, they should add heroes as well.

oh yeeah because that's how SC1 worked right?

[trace wm]

I know MBS changes a lot. Same with unlimited unit selection. But they aren't mining related.

I don't see how auto-mining affects that much, which is why I don't see the need for resource-centric macro mechanics.

[ArcherofAiur]

oh yeeah because that's how SC1 worked right?

I said it as a reference to WC3. Out of curiosity do you know how they got the idea for WC3? It started as an experiment with Starcraft to make it micro focused.

I know MBS changes a lot. Same with unlimited unit selection. But they aren't mining related.

I don't see how auto-mining affects that much, which is why I don't see the need for resource-centric macro mechanics.

To increase your mineral intake you had to invest attention in it. This meant every time you wanted to get a bigger army you had to sacrifice making your army better (by microing it).

This meant that each player was playing two games a combat competition and also an economic competition to see who could maintain the highest mineral intake. The player could increase one at the expence of the other.

[supersonic]

I said it as a reference to WC3. Out of curiosity do you know how they got the idea for WC3? It started as an experiment with Starcraft to make it micro focused.

No I didn't know that, but that's pretty interesting actually, but I think because different the races are in StarCraft, that even if they mine the same armies wont be the same because of how different Econ, armies, expansions, micro, and macro is played. Having it so all the races can get resources the same, but the execution is different is what helps keeps StarCraft so balanced.

[Kimera757]

Why isn't the old way of taking and holding expansions enough for resource macro (along with the perceived gas shortage with the two geyser system)? Just because they added in auto-mining doesn't mean they need to add in something else resource related.

Because some hardcore fans bitched about it.

For them, the manic switching from base to combat to base to combat is exciting. However, newer fans and casual gamers tend to prefer engaging in combat rather than just watching it.

The reports from Teamliquid seem to indicate that the new macro is boring and often overpowered, and in theory might force players to do nothing but spam the macro abilities (just like SCI forced you to spam "select worker and right click it on resources" every time you heard one being produced).

I don't know how valid this fear is; for lower-skilled players, they might prefer to do the things that are fun instead and never use the macro abilities. We won't really know until beta, which I really hope has an AMM.

(The beta for DoW II had one, and I doubt Blizzard would drop the ball on this.)

So you're saying with the minor auto-mining tweak the very fundamentals of Brood War change?

It does. Not necessarily in a bad way, but it does, because (without macro abilities) players would focus more time on micromanagement and less time on spamming "select worker and right click on resources"*, which takes up a huge amount of time. (According to Dustin Browder in some interview when speaking of challenges, he says you're supposed to make one worker every 20 seconds, so that's leaving combat three times a minute!) This means mid-level players could micromanage more skillfully, something only higher-skilled players can do in StarCraft I (those that can split attention better). This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the higher-skilled players want something to take up that extra attention. Blizzard has to find a compromise so lower-skilled players aren't overwhelmed doing boring spamming.

*This really needs an acronym. Any takers?