super soldier terran marine

[drakolobo]

after reading a novel of starcraft, I think the Terran Marine Equipment can compete with their technological and training processes against super soldiers(biologically enhanced ),with armored less prominent (sparthan, spacemarine, etc), as do the soldiers in section 8 (speed, reflexes, strength, marksmanship)
This thread is for us to mention events that indicate the limits of physical and mental capabilities of a Terran Marine

in this heart of swarm announcement, Jim is charged up a seemingly heavy door with one hand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klEBD...eature=related

[Quirel]

Uh...
Did you intend to link to a Spanish Diablo 3 documentary?

[drakolobo]

ja my error... corrected, is hots teaser

[phazonjunkie]

Doubtfully. Powered armor notwithstanding, Terran marines are for the most part neurally recocialized convicts or your basic run-of-the mill civilian recruits.

From what I understand regarding the Halo universe, Spartan supersoldiers are, from a young age taken, screened for fitness, subjected to 'training from hell', genetic enhancement, drilled in the arts of war, & finally fitted with super advanced armor which not only enhances their physical abilities, but which is, for all intents and purposes indestructible. WH40K marines are similar in this regard (I think).

The closest SC equivalent would probably be the ghost.

SC marines by comparison, are basically just space hicks with powered armor (which really isn't all that durable, all things considered) & heavy machine guns.....Basically redshirts or stormtroopers

[Kimera757]

What is Section 8?

I agree with Phazonjunkie. Marine armor is made to be cheap; it enhances the marine's strength, but zerg are strong for their size and protoss have so many advantages they still come out ahead (1:1 anyway).

I also agree about the ghost. Compared to Spartans, they tend to be recruited at an older age and don't have as good equipment (the Spartans probably wish they could cloak too), plus no deliberate genetic engineering. They're probably better than ODSTs (better equipment, psionic powers).

Spartans were made for a FPS game, which is why they're so tough. (They're even tougher in the novels, I don't believe Halo has their super-reaction speed built into the game.)

Ghosts were made for a multiplayer game as spellcasters; it wasn't until StarCraft II that the ghost unit came anywhere near suiting the lore.

[Hawki]

Usually stay away from these kinds of conversations. They're ultimately subjective, and if we're comparing elements of sci-fi, it aggravates me to no end that (at least the fans themselves) are always interested in x vs. y rather than "suppose x is introduced to y-what are the cultural, spiritual and technological implications for this in the process of intergration?")

Anyway, brief points for what it's worth:

-I don't that terran marines really rank highly on the supersoldier scale. Their armour gives them an advantage over other lighter armour/weapons in sci-fi, but the soldiers themselves would be average. Resocs or recruits, mentally, there's no real basis for them to be anything more than the average soldier.

-Spartan supersoldiers...I'll assume that you simply mean Spartan-IIs and not go into a various program analysis. At the least, MJOLNIR armour enhances strength, speed, etc. not to mention that the recruits (at least from the S-II and S-III generations) have the mental faculties to back them up (training from an early age, etc.)

-Space Marines: Cream of the crop. But everthing in 40K is compared to other medias, so it's a moot point.

-Always problematic to discuss Ghosts due to a varying PI level. On one hand, we have, say, Nova-jam the foe's gun in one second, fry their brain in the next. On the other, you get lower PI's Ghosts who, even with cloaking, might have a harder time.

-USIF Soldiers: Talking about Section 8 here. Kind of like terran marines, but are actually well trained and the like. Also have strong mental faculties (if by strong you mean "fucked up" in Corde's case, but that's another story) but they don't have childhood/centuries-worth experience.

Anyway, just my take. Power armour's all over the board in sci-fi, and as mentioned above, I dislike going into depth because it's subjective, and I feel that crossovers can ammount to more than x vs. y.

[Kimera757]

Always problematic to discuss Ghosts due to a varying PI level.

The typical ghost is PI 5-6. (Of course, what a typical ghost can do varies from one story to the next.)

[drakolobo]

Doubtfully. Powered armor notwithstanding, Terran marines are for the most part neurally recocialized convicts or your basic run-of-the mill civilian recruits.

well
specifically not looking for a V.S.
we can determine the scope of a typical Marine, and his role as "super soldier" disposable (product of your equipament and 'training' express) in comparative archetype of biologically enhanced soldier, in performance

We consider these points

stimpack injectors: the substance improves reflexes, and thus other physical abilities. and feeling relaxed before stressful events

marksmanship guide system (speed of the darkness): the C-14
guide the user's hands to the next target, with small movements

resocialization (frontline): there is a loss of initiative by the loss of memories, but is introduced tactical-operational knowledge is instinctive (reacting quickly) the management of common situations on the battlefield, and a relaxed reaction to situations of war (along with the stimpack)

medical technology: injectors painkillers, tourniquets system to prevent bleeding

resistance to shock waves (speed of velocity): when a Marine is caught in an explosion, its systems, try to stabilize the limb to prevent damage in the user

enhanced senses: infrared vision and tracking system sounds

stealth: reducing caloric signature, and silencers motion

with increasing force there is a speed increase and the resistance



What is Section 8?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZQ00rtmX5k

http://section8.wikia.com/wiki/USIF_..._Assault_Armor

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off topic
the indestructible armor espartan, resistance is in doubt, that the UNSC is similar to modern weapon for the infantry
and the space marine have been hurt 20mm bullets (ultramarine movie) and its weaker parts by lasgun equivalent common infantry rifles

[phazonjunkie]

well
specifically not looking for a V.S.
we can determine the scope of a typical Marine, and his role as "super soldier" disposable (product of your equipament and 'training' express) in comparative archetype of biologically enhanced soldier, in performance

We consider these points

stimpack injectors: the substance improves reflexes, and thus other physical abilities. and feeling relaxed before stressful events

marksmanship guide system (speed of the darkness): the C-14
guide the user's hands to the next target, with small movements

resocialization (frontline): there is a loss of initiative by the loss of memories, but is introduced tactical-operational knowledge is instinctive (reacting quickly) the management of common situations on the battlefield, and a relaxed reaction to situations of war (along with the stimpack)

medical technology: injectors painkillers, tourniquets system to prevent bleeding

resistance to shock waves (speed of velocity): when a Marine is caught in an explosion, its systems, try to stabilize the limb to prevent damage in the user

enhanced senses: infrared vision and tracking system sounds

stealth: reducing caloric signature, and silencers motion

with increasing force there is a speed increase and the resistance

Like Hawki said, everything is subjective & strict comparisons of the various super soldier tropes across different sci-fi universes are ultimately pointless.

However in considering Terran marines on their own merits then, for reasons that have been stated by Kimera, Hawki & myself, they don't really qualify as 'Supersoldiers' at least in the generally understood sense of the term.


While the tech specs/capabilities of the CMC armour would be impressive by today's standards, they're basically just standard military sci-fi fare, and in the end just that; specs, they can only help a soldier, they can't make one. And throughout the games, as well as supplementary EU material, marines are consistently portrayed as very easy to kill & highly expendable; neither of which are qualities typically associated with common supersoldier tropes.

[Kimera757]

well
specifically not looking for a V.S.
we can determine the scope of a typical Marine, and his role as "super soldier" disposable (product of your equipament and 'training' express) in comparative archetype of biologically enhanced soldier, in performance

We consider these points

stimpack injectors: the substance improves reflexes, and thus other physical abilities. and feeling relaxed before stressful events

marksmanship guide system (speed of the darkness): the C-14
guide the user's hands to the next target, with small movements

resocialization (frontline): there is a loss of initiative by the loss of memories, but is introduced tactical-operational knowledge is instinctive (reacting quickly) the management of common situations on the battlefield, and a relaxed reaction to situations of war (along with the stimpack)

medical technology: injectors painkillers, tourniquets system to prevent bleeding

resistance to shock waves (speed of velocity): when a Marine is caught in an explosion, its systems, try to stabilize the limb to prevent damage in the user

enhanced senses: infrared vision and tracking system sounds

stealth: reducing caloric signature, and silencers motion

with increasing force there is a speed increase and the resistance

To some extent I disagree. I know all these sources too, and they often conflict, plus I think you're taking some of these advantages "too far".

For instance, the enhanced senses. In "Weapon of War", we saw a marine get warned about rapid movement x number of meters away (a zergling). Said marine still got a zergling skewering him from behind. (That happened so many times, either zerg are super-strong, or CMC armor is made of tissue paper.) Infra-red goggles are really old tech; it's easy to bypass those.

I doubt the stealth is any good. You're lumbering around in a piece of heavy metal armor that makes you a foot taller. The only thing stealth does is make you clank less. If you didn't wear the armor, you'd actually be stealthier, I think.

Resocialization varies from one source to another. In many sources (eg the StarCraft comic, with the new Cerberus troops, and Heaven's Devils) being resocialized turns you into a suicidal idiot. Poor Commander Trakken freaked out because his Cerberus heavies couldn't take on a single War Pig, who managed to escape because he wasn't there to think for them.

A StarCraft marine is not a super soldier. They just have decent gear.