Plothole resolution in the Starcraft universe

[Pr0nogo]

Even with the artifact, they may well have been crushed before the artifact went off if most of her forces where actually on char. Also, In Gates of hell the attempts at landing are divided and scattered, and it's only because Raynor rallies them that it doesn't devolve into a wholesale slaughter. Raynor has been in multiple battles with the zerg, and he has a better understanding of Kerrigan than warfield does. It was actually stated that Valerian wanted Raynor beause he had better experience fighting Kerrigan herself.

I'm sorry, but with the entire Dominion military (or even just 80-90% of it) up against the amount of Zerg on Char at the time of SCII, I'm pretty sure they would have beaten Kerrigan. You're being just as inane as Shadow Archon if you truly think that Raynor and half the Dominion fleet is better than the entire Dominion fleet. The mere difference in size is enough to win the battle, forget fucking military experience. There are no Dominion officers who have experience battling Zerg? No? None? They'd still fucking win. They have enough troops and money to throw at the Zerg problem; with the artifact, there's no doubt that the Dominion would have pulled through.

As for Shadow Archon...

More than half of your responses are 'no no no yes no yes yes'. Give examples if you want me to respond to you, as I gave examples and you responded to two or three of them.

No, most of the Terrans were dying and without the artifact they would have been crushed at the final stand. Not to mention the majority of Zerg forces headed on their way back to slaughter them.

(it actually says at one point that most are on route back, and the heart of the swarm blurb says that most were on rout back when kerrigan was dezergified, resulting in an intrenicene blood bath that wiped most of them out.

Assuming DarthYam is right (wooh, that's a stretch), nope; assuming he's not right, how the fuck is Raynor going to avoid the same fate that the Dominion forces would, given the theoretical premise that they sacked Char with their massive force? What the fuck? How do you even write this shit?

Tychus was the sugar on top. Eliminating her with the artifacts is just as good because it still splinters the Zerg.

Your pronoun usage makes this sentence incoherent. Fix it; I have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

His son's? Sure, he may think so, but obviously it was truly Mengsk;s seeing as he knew what it was and it's job seeing as he makes Tychus rub Jimmy towards that direction.

My italics were meant to highlight how easily Mengsk could have manipulated the artifacts to come into his hands.

Please, the Dominion forces were focused on defending the core worlds. There's no way they could have gone after the artifacts themselves. You give them way too much credit.

I think you're giving the Zerg too much credit. Half of the artifacts weren't protected by the Zerg, anyways - it was mostly the Tal'darim. Remember that they have funding - if the limitless Dominion military can't be bothered to go out of their way to grab artifacts that the Dominion knows will mean the difference between victory and defeat, then a band of high-tech elite mercenaries will. Just pay 'em and point.

Remember, Zerg had no problem trashing Tarsonis, the UED, the Protoss, and all of those folks. The Dominion is an ant to the Zerg, and they never even were after them in SC2 to begin with.

Raynor's Raiders managed to put it all together, with no help from the Dominion/Valerian until late-game. You mean to tell me that the rabble of space cowboys can do what a mega conglomerate dictatorship's army can't? Why? Where is your evidence? You sound completely foolish, trying to put forth the Dominion as weaker than Raynor's Raiders. You might as well equate the destructive power of a nuclear warhead to a handgun bereft of munition.

Didn't fail according to SC2.

Uhm, yeah it did; Tychus died and Kerrigan survived. You're still purporting Mengsk's "master plan" to be some convoluted, unbelievable bullshit. Considering that Mengsk is supposed to be remotely intelligent and that Kerrigan contributes to his eventual downfall (likely as the killer and main ingredient to his demise in the first place), I find it completely unfounded of you to claim that Mengsk's plan was to make sure Kerrigan survived. Why bother hiring Tychus as a hitman? Just hire him as an informant to "rub Jimmy the right way". Makes slightly more sense, and doesn't have the convoluted "I HIRED YOU KNOWING YOU WOULD FAIL! MUAHAHAHAHA!" aspect.

Simple. Have Raynor as the person responsible for harboring the worst mass murderer in the sector and supporting her. There's just an unlimited amount of potential at manipulating that to make Raynor the bad guy, especially since we see a Dominion fleet and spec. forces just rape Raynor's Raiders in the teaser.

That was always beyond his power.

He couldn't have done it and letting Raynor do it was a plausible set to make the evidence turned against him null and void. The evidence here is that Raynor inserted that clip and that now he's harboring the Queen of Blades. Mengsk can spin that in his favor to the populace.

What you are suggesting is that not only can the Dominion not do what a small paramilitary group bereft of munitions can (...again), but that Mengsk is foolish enough to let his eventual killer loose, and is still concerned with his reputation and the reputation of others when you already stated that he doesn't mind letting himself fall in the public eye. If his reasoning is this flawed and backwards... I can't even finish that statement without using "fuck" and "cunt" several times.

Some of them are, but most of them aren't.

Bullshit. Prove it.

[Hawki]

I'm sorry, but with the entire Dominion military (or even just 80-90% of it) up against the amount of Zerg on Char at the time of SCII, I'm pretty sure they would have beaten Kerrigan. You're being just as inane as Shadow Archon if you truly think that Raynor and half the Dominion fleet is better than the entire Dominion fleet. The mere difference in size is enough to win the battle, forget fucking military experience. There are no Dominion officers who have experience battling Zerg? No? None? They'd still fucking win. They have enough troops and money to throw at the Zerg problem; with the artifact, there's no doubt that the Dominion would have pulled through.

Um, isn't that a bit...baseless?

Where's this coming from? If anything, the zerg outnumber the Dominion Armed Forces, and simply throwing them all into a meat-grinder like you're suggesting is not only incredibly risky for the Dominion, but I doubt they'd win. The UED wouldn't have won without the psi disruptor, and the Dominion wouldn't have won without the artifact.

Assuming DarthYam is right (wooh, that's a stretch), nope; assuming he's not right, how the fuck is Raynor going to avoid the same fate that the Dominion forces would, given the theoretical premise that they sacked Char with their massive force? What the fuck? How do you even write this shit?

The Dominion hardly "sacked" Char. Come HotS, Warfield's still doing clean-up.

My italics were meant to highlight how easily Mengsk could have manipulated the artifacts to come into his hands.

Not really a response, but more a query-where's the idea from that Mengsk knew what the artifacts would do? I never got a sense that anyone outside Valerian, Narud and Raynor (a few individuals, you get the idea) had an idea of what they might do (keyword, might). I always got the sense that Valerian was working on his own, with Mengsk not knowing/caring as a) his interest in such artifacts is of a different nature to Valerian's, b) he might not have let Valerian use them as he was hunting artifacts himself (mentioned by Tychus) and/or c) Valerian wanted the glory for himself. Kind of throwing it out there, but point is, I never got a sense of them being on the same page artefact-wise.

[DarthYam]

1.) Most of the Zerg were still invading prior to valerian's assault. They let up somewhat but they were still not out of the game. Considering those odds the fact that Valerian got as much as he did is impressive, and was probably all he COULD manage. There are other officers who have experience, but given that Raynor a.) fought alongside Kerrigan for a while, b.) often hid his forces on Zerg worlds to avoid detection, c.) had actually gone up against the queen of blades and SURVIVED, he has the experience to go up against Kerrigan herself (keep in mind that she is commanding the defense of Char, and since most generals could have easily just fought one of her brood mothers Raynor could easily

2.) The Zerg modus opperandi is to create an obscene amount of forces and than steamrole their enemy into submission. Do you really think it's smart to try the zerg's own tactics against them when they've been doing it for far longer? They do it far better than the terrans ever will.

3.) The actual cutscenes state flat out that most of the zerg forces are heading back to char, and Izsha states in one of the previews that most of the Zerg perished due to infighting after kerrigan was defeated (more specifically they were on route to char, and that since there was no one else unlike at aiur, they attacked each other. Also, in the very beginning of Gates of Hell your first objetive is literally "rally the dominion survivors that are scattered on Char's surface." the Zerg still caught them by surprise and nearly wiped out their invasion force at the beginning. Also, given the sheer fuking size of the zerg it's safe to say that even the forces that the Zerg DID have on Char were at least as large as the dominion fleet (in fact given standard zerg mo, I'd say that they may even have been able to outnumber them.) and by your own logic Kerrigan should have lost at Char aleph when she was being assaulted by Mengsk DuGaulle and the fucking Protoss with the bare minimum forces at Char Aleph.

4.) It goes back in that Raynor has more experience against the zerg and kerrigan than other mercs so they need to build it up.

, who says anything about releasing her? Just let her be in custody and leak that Jim is holding her in custody. Are you really that arrogant?

[Shadow Archon]

I'm sorry, but with the entire Dominion military (or even just 80-90% of it) up against the amount of Zerg on Char at the time of SCII, I'm pretty sure they would have beaten Kerrigan. You're being just as inane as Shadow Archon if you truly think that Raynor and half the Dominion fleet is better than the entire Dominion fleet.

You think that the entire Dominion fleet could invade Char? That assumes what, that they also have the artifact? Seeing as how they wouldn't be able to hunt them down since they were defending against the Zerg and doing counter attacks against infested systems.

As for Shadow Archon...

More than half of your responses are 'no no no yes no yes yes'. Give examples if you want me to respond to you, as I gave examples and you responded to two or three of them.

Examples? What? That the Zerg in every which way outmatch the Dominion and that they only won through the Artifact? That they couldn't organize the entire 1st and 2nd fleet like that due to the defensive position.

ssuming DarthYam is right (wooh, that's a stretch), nope; assuming he's not right, how the fuck is Raynor going to avoid the same fate that the Dominion forces would, given the theoretical premise that they sacked Char with their massive force? What the fuck? How do you even write this shit?

They didn't sack Char. They barely hung on.

Kate
This is Kate Lockwell reporting live for UNN. Stunning news tonight as massive numbers of zerg began pulling back to their main hive on the planet Char. While they aren't giving up the worlds they've conquered, most of the aliens appear to be massing near the fiery planet.

Donny
What can it mean Kate?

Kate
We really don't know, Donny. We'll keep you posted with any further developments.

Raynor
I know what it means. And it ain't good.

And most of those are Leviathans, you know, where Char only had one at the time and was one shotting BCs with Spore Cannons?

Your pronoun usage makes this sentence incoherent. Fix it; I have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

Kerrigan. The Zerg were already splintered from the Artifact. Killing her was just an added bonus. It took her two years to be able to control Zerg again and use them in any useful matter by the dates figures.

Are you going to be immature and sling on curses just against someone who has a different opinion than you?

My italics were meant to highlight how easily Mengsk could have manipulated the artifacts to come into his hands.

You mean how he did in the game.

I think you're giving the Zerg too much credit. Half of the artifacts weren't protected by the Zerg, anyways - it was mostly the Tal'darim. Remember that they have funding - if the limitless Dominion military can't be bothered to go out of their way to grab artifacts that the Dominion knows will mean the difference between victory and defeat, then a band of high-tech elite mercenaries will. Just pay 'em and point.

Yeah, the Zerg are the guys who defeated a Protoss fleet, a Dominion fleet, and a UED fleet combined at the end of Broodwar. Any direct confrontation is suicide.

The Dominion fleet couldn't do anything because it was being stalled by the Zerg forces who were hunting for them. Raynor's Raiders is an army that they abused to do the job anyways. No other group could have done it.

Raynor's Raiders managed to put it all together, with no help from the Dominion/Valerian until late-game. You mean to tell me that the rabble of space cowboys can do what a mega conglomerate dictatorship's army can't? Why? Where is your evidence? You sound completely foolish, trying to put forth the Dominion as weaker than Raynor's Raiders. You might as well equate the destructive power of a nuclear warhead to a handgun bereft of munition.

No, because of the simple fact of how the missions are done through game mechanics. We have no idea how the mission truely worked except that by the end, Raynor was victorious in achieving his goal. The most impressive is his Korhal one. His only unbelievable one is Selendis. Name one incident, besides Haven, that the Raider's shouldn't have been able to do.

Uhm, yeah it did; Tychus died and Kerrigan survived. You're still purporting Mengsk's "master plan" to be some convoluted, unbelievable bullshit. Considering that Mengsk is supposed to be remotely intelligent and that Kerrigan contributes to his eventual downfall (likely as the killer and main ingredient to his demise in the first place), I find it completely unfounded of you to claim that Mengsk's plan was to make sure Kerrigan survived.

You missed my point. The main purpose was to splinter the Zerg. Kerrigan is nothing without her army. Killing her was thwarted, but still things work out for the Dominion for two continuous years. It's not unbelievable IMHO.

Why bother hiring Tychus as a hitman? Just hire him as an informant to "rub Jimmy the right way". Makes slightly more sense, and doesn't have the convoluted "I HIRED YOU KNOWING YOU WOULD FAIL! MUAHAHAHAHA!" aspect.

You missed my point.

What you are suggesting is that not only can the Dominion not do what a small paramilitary group bereft of munitions can (...again), but that Mengsk is foolish enough to let his eventual killer loose, and is still concerned with his reputation and the reputation of others when you already stated that he doesn't mind letting himself fall in the public eye. If his reasoning is this flawed and backwards... I can't even finish that statement without using "fuck" and "cunt" several times.

Wow, you really are upset over other's opinions. Free speech though I guess.

First, the Dominion could perfectly do what Raynor did, but they can't do what he did in the story because of the Zerg in the sector attacking them. The main military is used on counter attacks on Zerg held systems for instance. They couldn't do all of what was needed to be done because they would have loss too much to the Zerg in one shape or another.

Also, not caring about reputation currently and manipulating it later back it to good shape can coexist.

Bullshit. Prove it.

Bring up one instance that isn't Haven or the UED first.

[DarthYam]

shadow, pronongo is not going to ever concede that maybe he's wrong. It's like talking to a brick wall

[Shadow Archon]

shadow, pronongo is not going to ever concede that maybe he's wrong. It's like talking to a brick wall

And neither will I. It's opinions anyways on the events. No one is necessarily right or wrong in the long view since each person has their own world view of Starcraft and their capabilities.

[Turalyon]

Gah! This thread just devolved into a massive "you say this, I say that" match. I'm still trying to pick apart all the minutiae.

All I can take from this back and forth is that the resolution of the plothole about Raynor and co. being able to survive the Char assault in SC2 and its subsequent aftermath is that it is not as clear/evident as it could be because there are many other alternative explanations for and against the possibility of that happening.

[topsecret221]

One can necessarily be right or wrong about the lore. There are some things that people can argue (for example, Raynor teaming up with the Dominion to attack Char is opposed by many people, but that's a decision who's motives are uncertain), but others (such as the full strength of a zerg swarm that has retreated to Char) are unquestionable. It's not about how good Raynor's strategy was. Zerg have the numbers, almost in the trillions, and Raynor might have three hundred or so. The Dominion is apparently worthless (as is shown by every single mission that you attack them in), so their help is essentially negligible.
The ridiculousness of this last assault on Char doesn't isn't really questionable. It doesn't matter what your world view of StarCraft is.

(Sorry if I sound kind of ass-y. I am very blunt about things like this)

[Shadow Archon]

One can necessarily be right or wrong about the lore. There are some things that people can argue (for example, Raynor teaming up with the Dominion to attack Char is opposed by many people, but that's a decision who's motives are uncertain), but others (such as the full strength of a zerg swarm that has retreated to Char) are unquestionable. It's not about how good Raynor's strategy was. Zerg have the numbers, almost in the trillions, and Raynor might have three hundred or so. The Dominion is apparently worthless (as is shown by every single mission that you attack them in), so their help is essentially negligible.

Uh, I disagree with that. The Dominion are not useless. As shown in HotS teaser, they completely assault the Raiders and seemingly put them dead in the water.

Remember, what happens in game is entirely dependent upon how you play it, and because its a game, its subject to the whole game mechanics are not canon, ergo, while you may stomp the Dominion here and there because your factories can pump out Thors in mere minutes from components harvested a minute before that, you have to know that this isn't necessarily how fast this resource mechanic works. Raynor never fought the Dominion's main military might head on. He only attacked either small outposts or raided compounds using strike teams and weapons taken from them.

The ridiculousness of this last assault on Char doesn't isn't really questionable. It doesn't matter what your world view of StarCraft is.

It really does, because my world view is whatever happens in the game mission itself besides dialogue and objectives and clear cut canon isn't true for the universe. Such as the 9th mission in SC1. There was no space platform. Otherwise I would be calling the UED an idiot for guarding their strategic weapon with only two Siege Tanks.

(Sorry if I sound kind of ass-y. I am very blunt about things like this)

No problem. You don't sound nearly as bad as some people do.

[Hawki]

One can necessarily be right or wrong about the lore. There are some things that people can argue (for example, Raynor teaming up with the Dominion to attack Char is opposed by many people, but that's a decision who's motives are uncertain), but others (such as the full strength of a zerg swarm that has retreated to Char) are unquestionable. It's not about how good Raynor's strategy was. Zerg have the numbers, almost in the trillions, and Raynor might have three hundred or so. The Dominion is apparently worthless (as is shown by every single mission that you attack them in), so their help is essentially negligible.
The ridiculousness of this last assault on Char doesn't isn't really questionable. It doesn't matter what your world view of StarCraft is.

(Sorry if I sound kind of ass-y. I am very blunt about things like this)

Couple of points:

*The full Swarm wasn't at Char. There were numerous leviathans still en route (presumably carrying zerg with them) that didn't make it in time, said leviathans being lost when Kerrigan was de-infested.

*I'm not sure how you can call the Dominion worthless based on the raids Raynor conducts. The main bulk of the Dominion are fighting the zerg and ultimately succeed in slowing their advance. Whether they would have slowed it completely had Kerrigan not given up searching for the artifacts is debateable, but if failing to stop the zerg counts as "worthless," then that's a moniker that belongs to every Koprulu faction who's tried, such as the Protoss Empire and the UED.