Karune explains how T or P counter 1hatch queen.

[supersonic]

Umm you can defiantly play without walling in even in sc1.

Yeah it takes some cleaver placement but its certainly doable


The main thing about walling in is that it gives you a way to prevent a scout in some cases, which is key.

You can also do this by blocking your ramp with 2 scvs.


Though to be honest why would you not want to wall in...it kinda makes sense

It's just a hassle as Protoss imo

[RamiZ]

Phase Prism got radius as a Pylon and that isnt Tiny radius at all!
Of course they could have changed that. And probably will for balancing issues. And for Roaching moving underground... I actually dont see the point in this, but nvm...

[Norfindel]

I said it before: the Zerg have high unit production capability, and has always needed more resources than the others. They should have a mining macro mechanic, instead of an increased production mechanic.

A Queen more than duplicates your Hatcheries. That's damn powerfull. With 7 Larva you can make 14 Zerglings. Try to stop that early game without walling-in.

[trace wm]

A Queen more than duplicates your Hatcheries. That's damn powerfull. With 7 Larva you can make 14 Zerglings. Try to stop that early game without walling-in.

That's the crux of the problem, innit? Queens come out much more quickly than Orbital Commands or Proton Charge. People are worried that with a Queen, Zerg can put on heavy early game pressure and still burn past you economically. So they've kept you in your base the whole game, and by the time you're able to harass they're more than ready for it. GG.

'Course what we should be saying wait for beta and/or give Blizzard more credit for balancing their games.

[Pandonetho]

Phase Prism got radius as a Pylon and that isnt Tiny radius at all!

They changed it. It's smaller now.

[Nicol Bolas]

A Queen more than duplicates your Hatcheries. That's damn powerfull. With 7 Larva you can make 14 Zerglings. Try to stop that early game without walling-in.

That sounds like a numbers issue. If you make the Queen do any of the following, it won't be "damn powerful":

* Spawn fewer larva per cast.
* Take more energy to cast.
* Require a Lair rather than a Pool. Or maybe her own special post-Pool building.
* Take more energy to cast than it does time to regenerate that energy, so that you need more than 1 Queen per Hatchery.

Any such issues are smoothed out during balancing.

Also, where are you getting the Overlords for those 14 Zerglings?

the Zerg have high unit production capability

No, they don't. They can, but that requires building very expensive buildings: Hatcheries.

They changed it. It's smaller now.

Even if it's Pylon sized, it wouldn't matter. Because it's still well within Marine/Hydralisk/Stalker range. The only thing you might need is a spotter for it, and only Protoss have even a slight problem getting one (Zerg have Overlords, Terrans have Scan).

[n00bonicPlague]

It's not like you should just stare at the phase prism as it deploys its power field and starts waping in units. Shoot it down..

But...it's so pprreettttyy.........

[Norfindel]

That sounds like a numbers issue. If you make the Queen do any of the following, it won't be "damn powerful":

* Spawn fewer larva per cast.
* Take more energy to cast.
* Require a Lair rather than a Pool. Or maybe her own special post-Pool building.
* Take more energy to cast than it does time to regenerate that energy, so that you need more than 1 Queen per Hatchery.

Any such issues are smoothed out during balancing.

I agree in that it can be balanced, but i think that the Zerg needed more resources than unit production. They already have high unit production.
Yes they production building costs considerable minerals, but any expansion you build is a production building, you can train any unit from there, Larva spawning is pretty fast, and you can have up to 3 Larva waiting to morph units.

Also, where are you getting the Overlords for those 14 Zerglings?

It's only 7 supply... Ok let's say 12 Zerglings, because you need one Larva for the Overlord.

[Nicol Bolas]

i think that the Zerg needed more resources than unit production. They already have high unit production.

The problem with the Zerg has been squeezing out Drones from a very limited supply of Larva, while still building necessary units. The reason Zerg expand first is because they're going to throw down a Hatchery soon anyway just to increase larva production, and it may as well be an expansion. Zerg rarely saturate their mineral patches because they tend to have more than other races.

Higher unit production therefore gives them more resources. You don't have to "squeeze out" Drones anymore; you can just build some. So a Zerg with more larva on the same number of mineral patches is able to get more resources than a Zerg with less larva, simply on Drone count. They can more quickly develop an expansion, powering out Drones until saturation is reached.

So the two are very interrelated when it comes to the Zerg.

It's only 7 supply... Ok let's say 12 Zerglings, because you need one Larva for the Overlord.

That's still the better part of one Overlord's worth of Zerglings. To get all of these extra units, you're going to have to pay for them in 100 mineral Overlords. That does act as something of a deterrent.

It might be interesting to see what would happen if Overlords provided only 7 food instead of 8...

[Santrega]

The problem with the Zerg has been squeezing out Drones from a very limited supply of Larva, while still building necessary units. The reason Zerg expand first is because they're going to throw down a Hatchery soon anyway just to increase larva production, and it may as well be an expansion. Zerg rarely saturate their mineral patches because they tend to have more than other races.

Higher unit production therefore gives them more resources. You don't have to "squeeze out" Drones anymore; you can just build some. So a Zerg with more larva on the same number of mineral patches is able to get more resources than a Zerg with less larva, simply on Drone count. They can more quickly develop an expansion, powering out Drones until saturation is reached.

So the two are very interrelated when it comes to the Zerg.



That's still the better part of one Overlord's worth of Zerglings. To get all of these extra units, you're going to have to pay for them in 100 mineral Overlords. That does act as something of a deterrent.

It might be interesting to see what would happen if Overlords provided only 7 food instead of 8...

Hey nicol... why does producing a lot require extra hatcheries? Can't you simply make a lot of queens and keep using larva injection with all of them? Requires only 150 minerals per queen, and they spawn 4 extra larva rather than a hatchery that only gives 3 larva...

Hmm, apparently theres a cool down on each hatchery, so i guess this wouldnt work as every queen will most likely need its own hatchery...

Anyone know how long the cool down lasts?