Diablo 3 15 may

[Hawki]

Is it sad that the first thing I noticed that apart from Zari, all your characters are named after a character from My Little Pony?

...well, at least season 3 will probably begin airing before I finish Lord of Destruction and start Diablo III at least.

[Twilice]

I had a Roshi character as well, because my monk looked like Master Roshi.

But he died.

[Turalyon]

Ok then, let's play!

Keep in mind that I don't have the extensive lore background that you do, so some of these explanations would noticeably grate against what you know about the universe. Such a thing, however, would just give credence to the notion I've mentioned many times before that the audience is punished for not knowing things they should know from sources outside of the previous games. However, since we are theory-crafting WoL's story as starting soon after BW, much of the EU material covering the 4 years span would be moot and references to such in WoL can be safely removed without compromising the core of WoL's story.

*Unit development: There'd be no conceivable in-universe reason for why the 'big three' have new units in their arsenal so quickly.

You've accepted contrivances before, it's not that hard to make something up. Just look at BW - it started a mere few days after SC1 and new units popped out of nowhere. With the Terrans, you can handwave it away as some secret project that the Confederates were working on that have just coincidentally been prototyped by the Dominion or that it was scavenged from the UED when they were defeated. With the Zerg, see BW's explanation for their new units - they morphed because of a desired need from the battlefield or the new units are alternative nesting forms or that the new units have just finished being assimilated since the start/before of Sc1 are now ready to use. With the Protoss, you can go the Dark Templar route - they've got units they you just haven't been privy to until now or they're just lying dormant (like the Colossus) and they're lying around already prefabricated (like most Protoss things) just rady to be reawakened.

*There'd be no conceivable way for the Dominion to have rebuilt its military might so quickly.

Who says the Dominion needs a sizeable military? Since it is largely ineffective in WoL, anyway it might as well be reworked as being underpowered if WoL were to start soon after BW. This would explain the Zerg being able to steamroll through their territory looking for the artifacts.

As for the final battle utilising "half the Dominion fleet", well, that can be reworked as stealth infiltration mission using whatever ships they have at their disposal. People rightly say that in SC1 and BW that Char isn't that defended before WoL because numerous enemy armies landed on it all the time without massive fleets. Hell, Raynor was able to get to Char with his small army in Sc1 just to see Kerrigan burst from her Chrysalis!

*Similar problem with the zerg. It doesn't give Kerrigan enough time to consolidate her powerbase.

There is no need to establish Kerrigan's powerbase because, relatively speaking, she is already top dog at that moment in time with the Dominion power structure (not the Dominion as a whole) in shambles and the Protoss (both varieties) being neutered.

And the same problem with the protoss, though the ratio of rebuilding to rediscovering is different from the other species.

We don't see much of the Protoss in WoL aside from the Tal'Darim which are established to be "different" and therefore have their own untouched arsenal to tap into. Other than that, the Protoss seem pretty much just as weak as they were in BW given their non-presence in WoL. You may argue about Selendis but that thing is borderline stupid as it is anyway because Selendis is risking and losing precious Protoss lives over what is essentially a pissing contest. That aspect can be reworked or, better yet, removed in its entirety because it really isn't important to WoL's story.

*The xel'naga temple emergence angle would be ludicriss, of compressing 4 years of emergence to the alotted timeframe.

Not sure what you're specifically talking about here. I'm not as hardcore with the lore as you are so I don't understand the value you place in it. Regardless, if WoL really did start soon after BW, one can chalk up the "emergence" as being coincidental since we are allowing up to a few weeks and/or months between our hypothetical WOL start.

*The timeframe for Zeratul's journey would be down to a few days, relatively speaking.

More things have been done in less time. Do I really need to go into specifics? Just like at the events in SC1 and BW.

*The Dominion wouldn't have time to start creating hybrids. And one can throw Project Gestalt out the window which, at the least, contributes to the sour relations between the Dominion and Protoss Protectorate in WoL.

We don't know the full story yet behind the Dominion and Hybrids. Given that Duran is posing as a human, he could've secretly been making Hybrids well before WoL started. This shouldn't be hard to believe considering new technologies pop out of nowhere (Psi Disruptor) with the excuse that it was "secretly being worked on but now here it is".

*There's no time for Mar Sara to be terraformed and resettled.

In WoL as it is, Mar Sara is used as a means to generate nostalgia and familiarity for the old game. Those Mar Sara missions can literally be anywhere else. A reworked WoL can start at different nondescript colony.

If it has to be Mar Sara, you can use the excuse that it's a different side of the planet they're on. The Protoss cleansed only the parts that had Zerg infestation and the Zerg themselves left it alone after finding what they were looking for in SC1.

*Kerrigan invading the Dominion pretty much invalidates her persona at the end of BW. I suppose her "reprieve" was only meant to last a few weeks/months in this version.

Yes, you're right since her reprieve could conceivably be a week(s) or month(s). However, since we're in keeping with the bones of WoL's story, Kerrigan is only "invading" to recover the artifacts so it still works.

*The fallout of the Kel-Morian Combine and Umojan Protectorate seceeding from the Dominion is marginalized.

We do not get major hints of this at all in WoL. The UP and KMC have always been underrepresented in SC such that they are essentially non-entities. WoL keeps that tradition up. They are not necessary or important to how WoL operates.

*It makes Raynor's declaration redundant. You've argued that WoL does that anyway in its current setting. But if it's a choice of him doing a 180 in a few months/weeks or developing over 4 years, I'm choosing the latter as the preferred option.

It would need some reworking no doubt but I've never specifically mentioned or had problems with Raynor actually "changing his mind" if that indeed is what has happened in WoL. What I have argued is the clarity in continuity and the transition into this "change of mind" (again, if this is indeed what people are inclined to think of Raynor).

I also mentioned a possible solution in exploring his new-found resolve from BW by showing he's taking of affirmative action against Mengsk as a means displace his anger and inability at not being able to fulfill vengeance against Kerrigan. It would make sense that Raynor would act quickly in this way to manage his guilt. Having him lose to Mengsk because of this new-found resolve would be a possible explanation for Raynor to "change his mind". This would then lead nicely into the rest of WoL's story, which could all still conceivably happen a few weeks/months from BW.

*One can write Tychus Findlay out of the story pretty much. Mengsk's plan with him hardly strikes me as the first choice.

Why Tychus is a choice at all, sooner or later, is beyond me. He can still fit in the narrative of WoL starting soon after BW without problem though. It's apparent that Tychus' goal was not to kill Kerrigan right from the start (Brian Kindregan says this himself) but to just keep an eye on Raynor. This could still conceivably work within a short time frame as Mengsk is known not to keep loose ends monitored or controlled as much as possible.

*It removes any real mandate for there to be genuine anti-Dominion sentiment from its people. Not enough time to oppress, not enough reason for people to want Mengsk gone. Can pretty much write the KLF out of existence for instance as well, along with any other rebel group.

*Makes it impossible for Swann, Stetmann, Kachinsky and arguably Hanson to be in the game, or at least with their given backstories.

These characters are nothing more than cyphers. They can be written around/replaced by something else as mundane as they currently are.

*The Spectre sub-plot can no longer exist.

While interesting from a lore perspective, they are not really important specifically to the story. If it must be included, we can treat them as new freakish prototype Ghosts that were made in the heat of the moment.

*The Moebius Foundation is given less breathing room to set up its position as a body invested in artifacts.

Given that, up until now, Moebius is a never-before-heard-of 'thing' (much like the Overmind re-imagining), it may well have originated from before we knew they even existed and done their secret exploration and discovery of the artifacts in shadow.

*It gives Duran practically no time to set up his alter ego as Narud (or they're different characters, but I think that's unlikely).

Narud comes out of nowhere much like Duran did in BW. He/it/whatever can be anyone and anywhere he wants to be.

*It makes Valerian's position in the Dominion contrived, the idea that he can make his position known over a matter of months/weeks and be in a position where he can command the influence he does.

There is no discernible difference either way. Valerian has a rich backstory no doubt in the EU - none of which is broached in the slightest in WoL. From the context of the games only, he comes across as just another cypher that pops up out of nowhere. The maintained goodwill of the Dominion's people towards Mengsk during Sc1 and BW could be retconned as being partly attributable to Valerian.

*It prevents the brood mothers from ever being created, which robs HotS of a number of characters.

Not necessarily. It is believed that HotS is to start some time after WoL as well.

*It prevents Izsha from ever coming to be.

We're going too far ahead with Izsha. HotS is not the purview of the current topic and Izsha can easily have different backstory altogether.

*It marginalizes/compresses the cultural tensions among the protoss...and gives them a prize for setting up a government in record time.

Mengsk was able to set up a government in the Dominion after getting rid of the Confederates in record time, who is to say the Protoss can't? The dual tragedy of having both Protoss homeworlds completely devastated and their respective populations heavily depleted may expedite the need for a government that can't afford to be hung up on cultural tensions. Then again, 4 years is not the answer either. You expect Protoss to give up centuries of cultural tension in 4 years?!

Why should I care about everything that happened in the previous games if they're just blips in a universe of carnage? Yes, the Brood War is considered seperate from the Great War, but at least it had a different 'essence' to it. I can take one war following straight after another, but two? The closer big events are to each other, the less impact they have.

If you play Sc1, BW and WoL one after the other, aren't you just experiencing the "blips in a universe of carnage" already? This is essentially the way it feels regardless given that the game is primarily about conflict. This is why I'm not too fussed about the details of the "big events" but rather on the characters who have to live through such hell.

And if you want to argue that the reset button is still pressed...

When I was talking about the "reset button", I was leaning more on the side of Raynor's characterisation being reset not the plot machinations.

[Noctis]

this thread is for diablo 3.

...how did this end up back to SC2?!?!?!? THERE IS NO COW LEVEL DAMMIT

[Hawki]

You've accepted contrivances before, it's not that hard to make something up. Just look at BW - it started a mere few days after SC1 and new units popped out of nowhere. With the Terrans, you can handwave it away as some secret project that the Confederates were working on that have just coincidentally been prototyped by the Dominion or that it was scavenged from the UED when they were defeated. With the Zerg, see BW's explanation for their new units - they morphed because of a desired need from the battlefield or the new units are alternative nesting forms or that the new units have just finished being assimilated since the start/before of Sc1 are now ready to use. With the Protoss, you can go the Dark Templar route - they've got units they you just haven't been privy to until now or they're just lying dormant (like the Colossus) and they're lying around already prefabricated (like most Protoss things) just rady to be reawakened.

Actually, none of the Brood War units are contrivances in the way you're suggesting. The protoss got 2 (3 if you're including Dark Templar units as new) that both belong to the Nerazim, and existed all along. The terrans got two, both of the UED, and medics are hardly a giant leap forward in tech. The zerg got two, both of which are evolutions of pre-existing forms, not to mention that the Devourer was established to exist during the Great War as well. In Wings of Liberty, the terrans get 8 new units, the protoss get 8 and so do the zerg, only one of which (the baneling) is an evolution of a pre-existing form. And this isn't even including all the campaign-exclusive units and the like.

Who says the Dominion needs a sizeable military? Since it is largely ineffective in WoL, anyway it might as well be reworked as being underpowered if WoL were to start soon after BW. This would explain the Zerg being able to steamroll through their territory looking for the artifacts.

As for the final battle utilising "half the Dominion fleet", well, that can be reworked as stealth infiltration mission using whatever ships they have at their disposal. People rightly say that in SC1 and BW that Char isn't that defended before WoL because numerous enemy armies landed on it all the time without massive fleets. Hell, Raynor was able to get to Char with his small army in Sc1 just to see Kerrigan burst from her Chrysalis!

Firstly, I'd hardly call the Dominion ineffective. If anything, it fits WoL's theme of humanity coming into its own, in that unlike the Confederacy, it can hold the line against the zerg and take the fight to them. Secondly, you've mentioned reworking a mission. That's a change to the storyline.

There is no need to establish Kerrigan's powerbase because, relatively speaking, she is already top dog at that moment in time with the Dominion power structure (not the Dominion as a whole) in shambles and the Protoss (both varieties) being neutered.

But still a bruised dog. And again, it goes against her character establishment in BW.

We don't see much of the Protoss in WoL aside from the Tal'Darim which are established to be "different" and therefore have their own untouched arsenal to tap into. Other than that, the Protoss seem pretty much just as weak as they were in BW given their non-presence in WoL. You may argue about Selendis but that thing is borderline stupid as it is anyway because Selendis is risking and losing precious Protoss lives over what is essentially a pissing contest. That aspect can be reworked or, better yet, removed in its entirety because it really isn't important to WoL's story.

In my earlier argument I was referring to HotS and LotV as well. And the fallout is still felt via Nahaan and Urun as well. They'd hardly be the same characters if the timeline is compressed.

We don't know the full story yet behind the Dominion and Hybrids. Given that Duran is posing as a human, he could've secretly been making Hybrids well before WoL started. This shouldn't be hard to believe considering new technologies pop out of nowhere (Psi Disruptor) with the excuse that it was "secretly being worked on but now here it is".

Duran's no doubt been making hybrids for awhile, but that doesn't mean the Dominion was. I can understand zerg DNA (as per Uprising) but where are they going to get protoss DNA from pre-GW? And who among the Dominion made a decision in this version that "you know what we need? Hybrids!" At least with the psi disruptor it was based on a pre-existing technology (psi emitters).

In WoL as it is, Mar Sara is used as a means to generate nostalgia and familiarity for the old game. Those Mar Sara missions can literally be anywhere else. A reworked WoL can start at different nondescript colony.

If it has to be Mar Sara, you can use the excuse that it's a different side of the planet they're on. The Protoss cleansed only the parts that had Zerg infestation and the Zerg themselves left it alone after finding what they were looking for in SC1.

Ergo, a change to the story. And as the protoss erradicated "all life on the surface," I don't see any particular area being spared.

Yes, you're right since her reprieve could conceivably be a week(s) or month(s). However, since we're in keeping with the bones of WoL's story, Kerrigan is only "invading" to recover the artifacts so it still works.

That's a stretch. It also marginalizes her premonition at the end of BW.

We do not get major hints of this at all in WoL. The UP and KMC have always been underrepresented in SC such that they are essentially non-entities. WoL keeps that tradition up. They are not necessary or important to how WoL operates.

The status is reinforced by the news blurbs and again, I'm projecting to HotS and/or LotV, as it's been stated that they'll have more of a role in them.

While interesting from a lore perspective, they are not really important specifically to the story. If it must be included, we can treat them as new freakish prototype Ghosts that were made in the heat of the moment.

Ergo, a change to the story. Tosh is far less compelling if he's the new kid on the block.

Given that, up until now, Moebius is a never-before-heard-of 'thing' (much like the Overmind re-imagining), it may well have originated from before we knew they even existed and done their secret exploration and discovery of the artifacts in shadow.

And, you know, kept the concrete evidence of alien civilizations locked away from the scientific community.

There is no discernible difference either way. Valerian has a rich backstory no doubt in the EU - none of which is broached in the slightest in WoL. From the context of the games only, he comes across as just another cypher that pops up out of nowhere. The maintained goodwill of the Dominion's people towards Mengsk during Sc1 and BW could be retconned as being partly attributable to Valerian.

Right, so, the news blurbs/interviews and the like is "out of nowhere?" And Valerian takes time to explain to Raynor his status via transmission. Heck, we even get a likely cameo of Juliana seemingly via the Bucephalus bridge.

We're going too far ahead with Izsha. HotS is not the purview of the current topic and Izsha can easily have different backstory altogether.

Therefore, changing the character. And even then in the timeframe you're suggesting, I wonder where Kerrigan found time to develop her.

Mengsk was able to set up a government in the Dominion after getting rid of the Confederates in record time, who is to say the Protoss can't? The dual tragedy of having both Protoss homeworlds completely devastated and their respective populations heavily depleted may expedite the need for a government that can't afford to be hung up on cultural tensions. Then again, 4 years is not the answer either. You expect Protoss to give up centuries of cultural tension in 4 years?!

Firstly, Mengsk stepped into fill a power vacuum-Confederate citizens wanted protection, he offerred it to them in exchange for allegiance. Secondly, the Khalai protoss are inflexible. Thirdly, even 4 years later, the cultural tensions aren't gone. If anything, they're getting worse, to the extent that by LotV, they've dissolved into tribalism.

If you play Sc1, BW and WoL one after the other, aren't you just experiencing the "blips in a universe of carnage" already? This is essentially the way it feels regardless given that the game is primarily about conflict. This is why I'm not too fussed about the details of the "big events" but rather on the characters who have to live through such hell.

WoL at least allows me breathing room at the start. I'm not coming to Mar Sara after disastorous first contact with an alien species, nor am I a protoss executor dealing with zerg rampaging on Aiur even after the Overmind's destruction.

#

So, in conclusion, looking at the above...you mentioned that you care more about characters than events. Alright, fine. But even then it seems that your main care is on Raynor, and even then you want to show his journey taking place over a diluted period of time, even if it's at the expense of other characters. Mengsk goes from rebel leader to dictator in a few weeks/months, Kerrigan goes from sleeping giant to rampaging giant in the same timeframe, Zeratul's soul searching becomes non-existant (and apparently his grief over Razsagal) and other characters might as well no longer exist. Even if I'm confining my argument to characters who had their origins in the previous games, it's still selling them short IMO. And I'm surprised I didn't bring this up before, but what about Ghost? Surely its "4 years later" approach was a harbinger of where the plot for StarCraft II would go. Didn't see anyone complaining back then.

You know, even if I'm just being told about these things in WoL, even if I'd come back compeltely ignorant after 12 years, I can't see myself having a problem. If I did, I'd have a problem with numerous other flicks, such as Star Wars, The Matrix, Terminator and the Alien series. Not that the film series in each of these are entirely without problems, but the gaps between installments aren't really one of them for me, nor reset buttons (e.g. between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back). Ultimately, this seems to be coming down to an argument of show, don't tell. In that, I agree, when the story itself is being written. But if we're referring to the gap between stories, that's a different matter. Again, I'm content with being told about the gap between The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings rather than being shown, because it would bog down the story something horrific.

Though I wouldn't mind if Peter Jackson shows it. He better use his third film for something other than money and/or the "trilogies are special!" meme.

[TheEconomist]

Give me a fucking break.

...sdfsdfsdf

[Hawki]

Never thought I'd say this, but Tychus has a point. And to be fair, Noctis raised it as well.

If Turalyon wants to respond, if at all, I think a new topic has to be started. Certainly the site's lore forums haven't been touched in a long time.

[Noctis]

...sdfsdfsdf

my signature is an accurate description of what the keyboards faced on this thread.

[Turalyon]

In the interests of keyboards everywhere and the concerns of those in the "Think of the Keyboards!" union, I will endeavor to be more kinder to my keyboard in future.

I'm so glad there are people out there who care so much for such an under-represented minority. I thank those of you for opening my eyes and stopping the cycle of abuse I was inflicting upon my poor keyboard.

[TheEconomist]

If you won't do it for your keyboard, do it for yourself.