Diablo 3 15 may

[Noctis]

Ahh but imperious, tyrael, and malthael aren't getting a "power up" per se, instead its more like...getting a transfer to a different department for them. whereas a demon to come into the power of a prime evil would be basically getting a promotion

[Turalyon]

I'm content to drop the Hellforge thing now. Kind of off-topic, but it turns out an answer of sorts is given in Book of Cain, which establishes that the Hellforge is located in the Realm of Destruction.

I can see this working in the context of the act and greater lore. Considering that Azmodan and Belial are waging their civil war, one can expect said war to be focussed in the Realms of Sin and Lies. And with the realms of the Three presumably being abandoned, I can understand why the act is comparatively loosely populated. Not the best explanation in the world of course, but I'm willing to accept it.

How is this an adequate explanation for you? Just because the Hellforge is in a place (the River of Flame) that also happens to be called the "Realm of Destruction" does not explain away your concern about it being out in nowhere/ the open and being vulnerable. Are you know reneging on your stance that the "Hell" the PC faces is not the outskirts of Hell?

I've wondered the same thing why there aren't any guards at Mount Doom either (kudos to you, I actually had to check up that "Orodruin" was another name for it). If I had to guess it would be the issue of a) logistics/supply, b) that Sauron assumed he and/or the Nazgul could sense it before it got too close and c) "one does not simply walk into Mordor." But unless the books explain it (been ages since I've read them) I'll have to go with d), which is "because the plot says so."

I wasn't necessarily looking for discrete answers to that. I just brought it up as means to holding up a mirror, so to speak, to your issue with the Hellforge. All these hypothetical guesses you've given are more than apt in answering why the Hellforge is where it currently is.

I think it's mentioned somewhere that the reason Sauron used his full army was that his intention was not only to defeat Aragorn and co., but to utterly humiliate them, to show in their last moments that they never had a chance.

The book has Gandalf actually guessing this on what motivates Sauron to move all his forces. It's not just to humiliate them but to also make sure he can retrieve his Ring which he mistakenly believes Aragorn is insolently trying to use against him.

I see what you're getting at, but even then, it struck me as more of a low point for him. His "high point" in the series was in Episode III IMO, in that he's showing that not only can terrans and protoss work together, but he's found a cause that goes beyond rebel ideology (destruction of the Overmind and all that). This continues in Episode IV, dialogue showing how he's got the respect of the protoss (or at least Zeratul and Fenix). Episode VI seems to be the low point for him in that he loses a friend (Fenix), loses any lingering faith he has in Kerrigan and it fits in with the 'essence' of the episode that it's a low point for everyone bar Kerrigan, and even she has a sedate victory.

I didn't see Raynor at the end of Episode III as being at a dramatic high-point - I don't think at the time Raynor was feeling at a 'high'. His little speech is quite solemn and resigned; it almost sounded like a suicide letter. As for the Fenix thing, when I said it was a dramatic highpoint for Raynor, I meant that this as a catalyst for great and positive change in Raynor. Up until then, Raynor was content to look the other way, go with the wind and take the easy way out. His final statement to Kerrigan in Episode VI is startlingly different in tone and character from what we have come to expect from Raynor (let's face it, he was becoming somewhat predictable even then) and not just because he's threatening to kill. It seems like, for the first time since we've seen him, that Raynor is finally taking control over his own life and stop being victimised. It's Raynor's epiphany/empowerment. A dramatic high-point.

Cut to WoL and his back to his usual self and it's like "Oh well, so much for that wake up call". I don't actually mind that/if Raynor does eventually "ignore the epiphany" but it seemed like a waste not to even acknowledge that such a thing even happened. It feels like what we got in Episode VI was revealed to be just a misleading and false epiphany - a waste of time. It's worse when it says "4 years has past" because then it just feels like it's really an excuse for a reset button to place Raynor's character where they want him to be at the start of WoL. It's what I would call a cop-out in my book.

I should probably specify that with the losing faith thing that if WoL had Raynor saying from the start that he still had hope for Kerrigan or something, it would be a character reversal IMO.

I think that the confusion with Raynor's motivations towards Kerrigan is muddied due in part to the disjointedness I mentioned above. Because of it, some people confuse Raynor's look at Kerrigan's photo as him being proof that he's holding a candle for her and that he has no heart to kill her even if he had the chance. I can only guess that would one think this if they don't truly understand where Raynor has come from in his character development - and in a sense, we don't because of the 'reset feel' that WoL has when we see first see Raynor.

[Hawki]

How is this an adequate explanation for you? Just because the Hellforge is in a place (the River of Flame) that also happens to be called the "Realm of Destruction" does not explain away your concern about it being out in nowhere/ the open and being vulnerable. Are you know reneging on your stance that the "Hell" the PC faces is not the outskirts of Hell?

I wasn't necessarily looking for discrete answers to that. I just brought it up as means to holding up a mirror, so to speak, to your issue with the Hellforge. All these hypothetical guesses you've given are more than apt in answering why the Hellforge is where it currently is.

I think something got lost in translation here. I'll try and put this in point form:

*Fact: The Hellforge is lightly guarded, relatively speaking.

*Fact: The Hellforge is located in the Realm of Destruction.

*Fact: The Realm of Destruction was Baal's realm.

*Fact: Baal hasn't ruled in Hell for approx. 3 centuries, during which, it's been consumed in a civil war between Belial and Azmodan.

*Inference: The reason the area is sparsely populated is because most of the fighting would be in the realms of Lies and Sin. Ergo, most of Hell's demons would be there. Ergo, there aren't many demons in the realms of the Primes due to their absence, that a fair few of those demons followed them to Sanctuary, switched sides or abandoned their old cause.

*Issues: My old hypothesis was that we were on the outskirts of Hell. I think this is still true to an extent in that one of the act's areas is called the Outer Steppes, not to mention that the City of the Damned kind of struck me as a sucky place to be, even for demons (the proverbial shanty town). But I have to wonder about the geography of Hell kind of, whether the Realm of Destruction is the outermost realm, as per its proximity to the Pandemonium Fortress. Of course, if the "gates of hell" mentioned are indeed metaphorical, then it becomes a moot point. Certainly I'm sure Baal would relish having his realm on the frontline and all that.

I didn't see Raynor at the end of Episode III as being at a dramatic high-point - I don't think at the time Raynor was feeling at a 'high'. His little speech is quite solemn and resigned; it almost sounded like a suicide letter. As for the Fenix thing, when I said it was a dramatic highpoint for Raynor, I meant that this as a catalyst for great and positive change in Raynor. Up until then, Raynor was content to look the other way, go with the wind and take the easy way out.

So, abandoning Mengsk for his principles, siding with the protoss in a fight he'll get no recognition for and staying involved as the UED clamps down on the sector is the "easy" way out? It's not as if there weren't any places he could lay low or anything.

His final statement to Kerrigan in Episode VI is startlingly different in tone and character from what we have come to expect from Raynor (let's face it, he was becoming somewhat predictable even then) and not just because he's threatening to kill. It seems like, for the first time since we've seen him, that Raynor is finally taking control over his own life and stop being victimised. It's Raynor's epiphany/empowerment. A dramatic high-point.

Again, disagree. It's a vent his spleen moment and did the same thing against Mengsk.

Cut to WoL and his back to his usual self and it's like "Oh well, so much for that wake up call". I don't actually mind that/if Raynor does eventually "ignore the epiphany" but it seemed like a waste not to even acknowledge that such a thing even happened. It feels like what we got in Episode VI was revealed to be just a misleading and false epiphany - a waste of time. It's worse when it says "4 years has past" because then it just feels like it's really an excuse for a reset button to place Raynor's character where they want him to be at the start of WoL. It's what I would call a cop-out in my book.

I don't want to draw out the "let's see you do better card" (seriously, I omni-loathe that move) but I'm not exactly sure how else it could have been done. You say that "4 years later" is a cop-out, but WoL's story could hardly have realistically been told if it took place immediately after Brood War. It doesn't give any precedent for the big three to develop and rebuild, it would remove the 'essence' of the ending of Brood War itself and prevent numerous plotlines from ever coming to be, such as the Spectres, or convolute other issues such as the rising Khalai/Nerazim tensions. Four years always struck me as a reasonable timeframe because it allows at least some time for those issues to develop. You could extend it if you wanted to but it's really a moot point because the essence of time passing remains the same. It's basically the same principle that applies to the timeframe gaps in the Warcraft and Diablo series, the length of timeframes varying depending on the need to establish new characters or circumstances.

I think that the confusion with Raynor's motivations towards Kerrigan is muddied due in part to the disjointedness I mentioned above. Because of it, some people confuse Raynor's look at Kerrigan's photo as him being proof that he's holding a candle for her and that he has no heart to kill her even if he had the chance. I can only guess that would one think this if they don't truly understand where Raynor has come from in his character development - and in a sense, we don't because of the 'reset feel' that WoL has when we see first see Raynor.

I never got that impression myself, again because he's never had a chance to kill her, so without the chance to achieve vengeance, despair is the next logical emotion, or at least a shimmering down of said vengeance. Again, leaving EU out of this because of your stance on it, but even if I came straight from BW to WoL, I wouldn't say I got a disjointed feeling because again, we get Raynor in status b (despair), from point a (BW, desire for revenge), point c being provided the opportunity to address point a via the artifact, and leaving point d open right until the end. Really, the only thing I could see him fully intending to kill Kerrigan is if the artifact's purpose was revealed before Zeratul tells him of the supposed need to keep him alive, but even then it's up in the air because back in BW, there was no prospect whatsoever of turning her back.

[Turalyon]

So, abandoning Mengsk for his principles, siding with the protoss in a fight he'll get no recognition for and staying involved as the UED clamps down on the sector is the "easy" way out?

Yes. Raynor's decision's in those above situation are somewhat made for him. He is essentially taking the path of least resistance (so to speak) - which is why he often gets victimised throughout SC so far. His declaration of vowing to kill Kerrigan is a sign that he's now ready to 'raise hell' all on his own!

You say that "4 years later" is a cop-out, but WoL's story could hardly have realistically been told if it took place immediately after Brood War.

This is one of the reasons why it should have followed up straight after (or at least, soon after). Sure, it's a difficult position for the writers to be in but the test of any good writer is to find a way through it. There is currently no good in-universe reason why 4 years just happen to fly on by and the status quo remains the same despite the massive upheavals in the short time that the events Sc1 (and WoL even) brought about.

It's a vent his spleen moment and did the same thing against Mengsk.

Never said it wasn't, but it's more than that. You have to consider that this is the last time we see of Raynor in the story, so it's clear that his final words are going to be more significantly weighted (he's making statement about himself in general) than just to be interpreted as a throwaway "I'll get you, my pretty, and your little dog, too!"

I never got that impression myself, again because he's never had a chance to kill her, so without the chance to achieve vengeance, despair is the next logical emotion, or at least a shimmering down of said vengeance.

That sliding emotional state would be fine if it was either shown to happen or just plain told. We got neither. So while it sounds nice and justified, it's not a practical leap that most people would immediately make.

To illustrate that, it would've been better to see Raynor's failed effort at attacking Mengsk within those 4 years where he's new found fire for vengeance and direction (from BW) would be aimed at Mengsk (in lieu of Kerrigan because she is impossible for him to target) and then him coming to despair at his failure to even do that. Please keep in mind that WoL's story could've worked but I think they overstepped an important part in Raynor's character development that would have been more interesting exploring than what we got in WoL.

[Hawki]

You know, I started responding to each of the quotes individually, but it's become clear this is going in circles. There's claims of "nothing changes in four years" or "we never see Raynor's struggle against Mengsk" when even if I'm confining my argument to Wings of Liberty itself, just isn't true. It's laid out right from the installer.

If you want to make the argument that WoL should have happened right after Brood War, it's another argument that I can't really argue with, because it's down to personal preference. To me, I'm satisfied with the four years, because at the very least, it gives the required time for certain plot points to become manifest, such as the Dominion's rebuilding, the protoss fracturing and Kerrigan's rebuilding/development of the swarm, not to mention other plot material such as the Spectre Rebellion. If you wanted to have WoL take place immediately after BW, well, you've got HunCraft for that. Issues of canonity aside, let's entertain the notion that it was made by Blizzard. If that was the case, all I can say is that I'd be the one venting my spleen. Even if you changed elements of the story, it still raises the issue of bunching too much plot-relevant material into too short a timeframe IMO.

I've played numerous other RTS genres and it really boils down to the same issue-any story told in an RTS basically falls into two categories-either it's something that's large, and changes the status quo, or is something that doesn't because it's set in a setting where a battle, even a campaign, isn't really going to change much. Cases of the latter would be Halo Wars, Dawn of War or any WWII RTS. Games that are in a setting consumed with war, so while a story can be told, the status quo isn't going to change. Cases of the former are self-explanatory-StarCraft, Warcraft and Command and Conquer for instance. Yet it's the last media that shows the dangers of a lack of breathing room.

Take Command and Conquer: Generals and its expansion, Zero Hour for instance. Decent gameplaywise, but storywise? I'm pretty much left asking "what story?" but of what is given, it raises the issue of bunching RTS games close together. The first game basically boils down to "China attacks GLA, GLA retalliates, USA finishes the job." The expansion basically boils down to "USA continues fight and supposedly wins, GLA strikes back, China comes in and saves the day." IMO, there's an inherant problem with this 'story' because not only is story 2 essentially a repeat of story 1 with roles reversed, but it basically completely invalidates story 1. Not that I was ever really emotionally invested in playing as the US of A (nor was I China for that matter-my disinterest is balanced) but it basically makes everything I did as a player worthless in story 1.

I bring this up because IMO, HunCraft suffers the same issues. It invalidates everything that happened in Brood War. Kerrigan is dead. Raynor is dead. For all Duran's talk about the hybrids, they're killed off in a story that takes place so soon after BW that his words don't have any time to sink in. The Dominion is taken out. In essence, everything was done to ensure that the zerg are erradicated, the Dominion is devastated and we're left with few, if any characters that we give a damn about. Again, I'm not outright averse to the zerg becoming extinct in the setting or being removed from it (which, IMO, they should be post-Legacy of the Void) or the Dominion crumbling, but happening so soon, I'm left wondering, what did we accomplish? Granted, Brood War did some of the same things arguably, but credit where credit is due, Kerrigan is a different character from the Overmind, the protoss are in a new position, and the Dominion still exists, reaffirming that the events of Episode I actually mattered. Some have complained that WoL didn't reference BW enough, but even if I felt that myself, it didn't completely invalidate it like HunCraft did.

It may be worth mentioning that short breaks between RTS games can work. Only two years pass between Orcs and Humans and Tides of Darkness for instance. Still, those two years are effectively analogous to the four years between BW and WoL for all intents and purposes. The razing of Azeroth has time to sink in. It gives time for the Horde to settle under Doomhammer's new framework and for the Alliance to form. I can't claim that Tides of Darkness had that intricate a storyline but I still hold it above Orcs and Humans because among other things, it was bigger, the stakes were higher and consequently, there was more emotional investment. If in-universe the orcs had kept rampaging north without stopping to establish a powerbase, even ignoring the logistics argument of the northern kingdoms being unprepared for war, it makes the destruction of Azeroth seem hollow, that it ultimately means nothing in the grand scheme of things. And thus, the process of sending the greenskins back through the Dark Portal less satisfying.

So yeah, long story short, I think it was a good idea for a time gap between WoL and BW. Gives more time in-universe for plot points to be set up and it's a similar feel to the WC1/2 divide. Even if you want to make the argument that having an immediate continuation would allow the games to do Raynor's character development rather than bridging material, it would still sacrifice Kerrigan's character development. For me, I'm satisfied with both. For Raynor, I've followed him over the years, I've seen what's led up to this, and I'm thus emotionally invested and fulfilled when he overcomes his demons. For Kerrigan, I haven't seen as much of her, but that's probably for the best, given her different M.O. in WoL, how she's less hands on. To me, this adds to her character because it establishes her as a larger threat in a sense, that the zerg can do her dirty work for her rather than the more hands-on approach she had in BW. The proverbial Sauron rather than the proverbial Witch-King, so to speak.

[Turalyon]

There's claims of "nothing changes in four years" or "we never see Raynor's struggle against Mengsk" when even if I'm confining my argument to Wings of Liberty itself, just isn't true. It's laid out right from the installer.

There's some underlying hypocrisy here. You've mentioned previously the importance of showing and not telling and how not doing so affects one's perception of how things are and yet you now cannot fathom how such a thing is happening in this particular case? If you truly understood (I'm NOT asking you to agree but to understand) the problems that some people have with Sc2, the installer info is actually a legitimate part of the problem.

I know that the claim of "nothing changes in 4 years" and the "we never see Raynor's struggle against Mengsk" is not inherently true but you have to ask why and where in WoL would prompt someone to say such a thing. The "noting changing in 4 years" thing is at least a valid concern since the status quo has remained largely the same since BW despite knowing (by playing Sc1 and BW) that things can change in that universe in the matter of weeks (which WoL even goes on to prove as it unfolds). In that perspective, had we not known, WoL could just as easily have happened (with some simple reworking) very soon after BW making one question the validity of 4 years. Then again, people use that very same "4 years" to explain the change and softening of Raynor's resolve. Sure, 4 years could result in seemingly unlikely thing to happen and likely things to not happen but when it's presented the way it is in WoL, one is left with the only assumption that the set-up is contrived.

If you wanted to have WoL take place immediately after BW, well, you've got HunCraft for that. Issues of canonity aside, let's entertain the notion that it was made by Blizzard. If that was the case, all I can say is that I'd be the one venting my spleen. Even if you changed elements of the story, it still raises the issue of bunching too much plot-relevant material into too short a timeframe IMO.

Don't know what this is so I can't really comment. Even so, I'm more primarily concerned about the writing and the portrayal of the characters to be worried about the emphasis on plot machinations. It seems to me that this Huncraft is just another "what if" scenario relying on plot machinations to drive their writing and portrayal of its characters rather than the other way round. Then again, I see some of that happening in WoL, too.

Some have complained that WoL didn't reference BW enough, but even if I felt that myself, it didn't completely invalidate it like HunCraft did.

True, but this (not referencing BW enough) is mostly attributable to the smaller focus that WoL has, so it has an excuse (sort of).

Generally speaking, "invalidation" (as you're describing it here) can be seen to be happening in Sc1 as well. From a certain perspective (keep in mind that I don't necessarily hold these views), Episode I seems invalidated because the shift in Episode II is about an alien presence which has no meaningful dealings with Terran political upheaval (aside from taking advantage of it) making you think why was Episode I necessary plot-wise (I'm not saying this to request an answer from you because you and I clearly know the importance of it - I hope). In Episode II we see all this hooplah about the Overmind just so that it ends up getting killed in Episode III. I can imagine one saying, "Well, that was predictable" and "What was the point of focusing on an unrelatable (which I would say is debatable) alien entity that was going to be killed anyway?".

It may be worth mentioning that short breaks between RTS games can work.

I'm not saying it can't, just that in this particular case (WoL) it isn't working and/or they could've done much more with it without it feeling so trite.

[Hawki]

There's some underlying hypocrisy here. You've mentioned previously the importance of showing and not telling and how not doing so affects one's perception of how things are and yet you now cannot fathom how such a thing is happening in this particular case? If you truly understood (I'm NOT asking you to agree but to understand) the problems that some people have with Sc2, the installer info is actually a legitimate part of the problem.

I know that the claim of "nothing changes in 4 years" and the "we never see Raynor's struggle against Mengsk" is not inherently true but you have to ask why and where in WoL would prompt someone to say such a thing. The "noting changing in 4 years" thing is at least a valid concern since the status quo has remained largely the same since BW despite knowing (by playing Sc1 and BW) that things can change in that universe in the matter of weeks (which WoL even goes on to prove as it unfolds). In that perspective, had we not known, WoL could just as easily have happened (with some simple reworking) very soon after BW making one question the validity of 4 years. Then again, people use that very same "4 years" to explain the change and softening of Raynor's resolve. Sure, 4 years could result in seemingly unlikely thing to happen and likely things to not happen but when it's presented the way it is in WoL, one is left with the only assumption that the set-up is contrived.

There's a difference between contesting facts, and how those facts are presented. In my mindset, I can objectively refute the claim that nothing happens in four years. If you want to argue how those facts are presented, it's another matter, but that wasn't the basis of your earlier statement. Certainly show is preferable to tell, but there are times when it becomes unavoidable or even preferable. Taking Star Wars as an example, did anyone say that they wanted to see the capture of the plans in a conventional sense and then move onto the attack on Leia's ship? Or does it work better that we're told these things and then get the scenario? It's not the best comparison to make, but it's an example where I think it was the right decision to tell these things rather than show them.

But moving back to the quote, one of your main contentions is not so much whether I agree, or understand, and that nothing changes I'll say my understanding only goes so far, because I've heard the opposite argument, such as "things have changed too much," such as the Dominion's revived status. WoL might have been able to follow on from BW, but I can't see it having the same story. There'd be too many contrivances. Perhaps I'm "not getting it" but it seems that the crux of your argument is that WoL's story should have been different, in which case, I can't argue with that, because unless I know what that story idea encompasses, I can't judge it.

Don't know what this is so I can't really comment. Even so, I'm more primarily concerned about the writing and the portrayal of the characters to be worried about the emphasis on plot machinations. It seems to me that this Huncraft is just another "what if" scenario relying on plot machinations to drive their writing and portrayal of its characters rather than the other way round. Then again, I see some of that happening in WoL, too.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/HunCraft

I'll specify that I give HunCraft consideration in the same way I give Stellar Forces the time of day-unauthorized, but still commercial products, hence I see them as canon unless something renders them null. Difference is with such products is that I can't use them as the crux of a canon argument in the same way I can with other products. Only reason I brought it up is because of it highlighting the issues of having a game take place so quickly after Brood War.

[Turalyon]

There's a difference between contesting facts, and how those facts are presented. In my mindset, I can objectively refute the claim that nothing happens in four years. If you want to argue how those facts are presented, it's another matter, but that wasn't the basis of your earlier statement.

I thought that most of my comments previously were leading up to the issue of how facts are presented (ie: the storytelling - which is different from story per se) in WoL.

I'm sure you can objectively refute that claim. but you come from a place of privileged information and a specific perspective which really just amounts to saying that's "it's your fault for not seeing it/ being informed previously" when you try and explain why (not that you have yet and not what I'm asking for either) that claim is false.

But moving back to the quote, one of your main contentions is not so much whether I agree, or understand, and that nothing changes I'll say my understanding only goes so far, because I've heard the opposite argument, such as "things have changed too much," such as the Dominion's revived status.

Thought experiment time! I would suspect that the "Dominion status/ changed for better too much" argument can be somewhat reconciled/refuted by looking at how the Sons of Korhal/nee Dominion took control over the Confederates. After being taken over by the UED and Kerrigan not really touching Korhal's "important" settlements when retaking it for Mengsk, the Dominion as a whole may well just have survived unscathed. The changes in both wasn't so much about infrastructure damage as just a temporary leadership change. Given that the above maybe the case, doesn't this then just prove that nothing has happened over the 4 years in terms of galactic status quo?

It's not the best comparison to make, but it's an example where I think it was the right decision to tell these things rather than show them.

I get where you're coming from but Star Wars is not a sequel (when originally conceived at any rate) nor a continuation of a specific characters journey.

WoL might have been able to follow on from BW, but I can't see it having the same story. There'd be too many contrivances.

Why not? WoL takes more than enough liberties of its own to try and support itself - the artifacts being the most obvious and in-your-face contrivance of them all. Jokes aside, one can still see WoL's story happening soon after BW by just looking at the base nuts and bolts of the thing:

During the recent upheaval from UED invasion, Mengsk would be more vulnerable than ever to Raynor's attacks, who is now aware of the futility of attacking Kerrigan and goes for an easier target. Mengsk, being a power-hungry madman is going to more extreme measures to try and regain and maintain the power he recently lost which puts him at odds with some sections of the Terran populace and Valerian, who now also sees a chance for himself to make a name for himself. Sprinkle in the mysterious artifacts and hey presto. The Char invasion can be explained away without needing half of the Dominion's fleet as a precision strike (with appropriate set-up and justification) because planet hopping was rife and easy to do already in the previous games and people didn't complain about that then.

Perhaps I'm "not getting it" but it seems that the crux of your argument is that WoL's story should have been different, in which case, I can't argue with that, because unless I know what that story idea encompasses, I can't judge it.

That's not what I think at all. I've come to realise that all stories are nothing really special in themselves but rather how they're told (SC1 story is very bland, yet it is memorable). I'm questioning (at the moment) the value of the 4 years later as a means to propel a story somewhat artificially, unnecessarily and at the expense of creating needless questions. By explicitly showing that nothing has really changed because the game starts off soon after BW, most of the questions can be squashed alongside a dash of exposition to orient ourselves (ie: Dominion looks powerful because we're looking at a different area to the one the UED invaded on and was subsequently repulsed. Raynor channeling/displacing his anger and inability to enact vengeance on Kerrigan onto Mengsk instead).

[Hawki]

"Thought experiment time" seems to be the keyword in the above post. Alright, I'll play. Let's try and tell WoL's story as if it took place just after BW-a few months or weeks. I won't list everything that's changed over the last four years, but suppose this was somehow compressed to the above timeframe. If WoL had continued just after BW, here's the problems I'd have, along with what's known of the plots of HotS and LotV

*Unit development: There'd be no concievable in-universe reason for why the 'big three' have new units in their arsenal so quickly.

*There'd be no concievable way for the Dominion to have rebuilt its military might so quickly. Even under the argument that it never lost its capacity for military buildup (ala Germany post-WWI), it couldn't do it in the above timeframe. You can argue that it couldn't do it in 4 years either, but even so, months/weeks? Hardly.

*Similar problem with the zerg. It doesn't give Kerrigan enough time to consolidate her powerbase.

*And the same problem with the protoss, though the ratio of rebuilding to rediscovering is different from the other species.

*The xel'naga temple emergence angle would be ludicriss, of compressing 4 years of emergence to the alotted timeframe.

*The timeframe for Zeratul's journey would be down to a few days, relatively speaking.

*The Dominion wouldn't have time to start creating hybrids. And one can throw Project Gestalt out the window which, at the least, contributes to the sour relations between the Dominion and Protoss Protectorate in WoL.

*There's no time for Mar Sara to be terraformed and resettled.

*Kerrigan invading the Dominion pretty much invalidates her persona at the end of BW. I suppose her "reprieve" was only meant to last a few weeks/months in this version.

*The fallout of the Kel-Morian Combine and Umojan Protectorate seceeding from the Dominion is marginalized.

*It makes Raynor's declaration redundant. You've argued that WoL does that anyway in its current setting. But if it's a choice of him doing a 180 in a few months/weeks or developing over 4 years, I'm choosing the latter as the preferred option.

*One can write Tychus Findlay out of the story pretty much. Mengsk's plan with him hardly strikes me as the first choice.

*It removes any real mandate for there to be genuine anti-Dominion sentiment from its people. Not enough time to oppress, not enough reason for people to want Mengsk gone. Can pretty much write the KLF out of existance for instance as well, along with any other rebel group.

*Makes it impossible for Swann, Stetmann, Kachinsky and arguably Hanson to be in the game, or at least with their given backstories.

*The Spectre sub-plot can no longer exist.

*The Moebius Foundation is given less breathing room to set up its position as a body invested in artifacts.

*It gives Duran practically no time to set up his alter ego as Narud (or they're different characters, but I think that's unlikely).

*One can discard the War Pig backstory. Or, really, any of the mercenary backstories.

*It makes Valerian's position in the Dominion contrived, the idea that he can make his position known over a matter of months/weeks and be in a position where he can command the influence he does.

*It prevents the brood mothers from ever being created, which robs HotS of a number of characters.

*It prevents Izsha from ever coming to be.

*It marginalizes/compresses the cultural tensions among the protoss...and gives them a prize for setting up a government in record time.

*And perhaps the biggest gripe for me, it changes the 'essence' of the setting. The Koprulu sector isn't exactly the most peaceful part of the galaxy, but the idea of making WoL follow on from BW means we have three wars fought in the space of a year or so. Why should I care about everything that happened in the previous games if they're just blips in a universe of carnage? Yes, the Brood War is considered seperate from the Great War, but at least it had a different 'essence' to it. I can take one war following straight after another, but two? The closer big events are to each other, the less impact they have.

So yeah, those are my gripes. Even ignoring everything else that isn't reflected in WoL, HotS or LotV in itself, it's still compressing/contriving everything to the point where I wouldn't really care what happened anymore. And if you want to argue that the reset button is still pressed, I'll use the WW1/2 analogy. Did WWII repeat history? As far as Europe was concerned, perhaps yes. But given the time that passed between them, I think history will remember them as two seperate conflicts, and two tragic conflicts at that. Different people fought, different people died, but they can be remembered equally.

[Twilice]

Your discussion is getting boring, it's time to boast!
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/T...12/hero/286328

Hidden Content:

inb4 "l2p noob you got lifesteal/lifeonhit and vitality and shies instead of pure dps".