Diablo 3 15 may

[broodmywarcraft]

You say that, then proceed to agree with me, word for word, exactly how I said it days/weeks/months ago, and then act as if I was way off base. Expecting anything more than what you got was foolish, from the beginning. No amount of sugarcoating can change that. Go read the Sin War trilogy.

I wasn't really paying attention to what you were saying the days/weeks/months before Diablo 3 because it's not about you. I was dealing with what you said at that moment.

And my expectations for Diablo 3 were already faultering after the beta and if I remember a few days or even a couple of weeks ago you saying to me that I should not be judging the game by its beta, well guess what? The beta wasn't far off.

Hence the problems.

So basically the only way I can expect a good experience is to to dumb down everything I held up high with the first two games? That's pretty pathetic.

It was pretty obvious from the very first reveal that this was not going to happen. They first comments on the game were, "We want to expand the unverse." I know exactly what that means. Then they proceeded to explain what they had in plan for the series. I'm guessing you were busy with StarCraft 2 information back then,

My expectation still holds considering they expanded from Diablo to Diablo 2, yet still maintained the atmospheric minimalism. And even the atmosphere that they did give us here is loud, shallow, and overly directed, that's not a good thing.

I knew this in 2005, when I read about the Sin War trilogy. It's been six years since this plot was explained clearly in a length novel, and you call yourself a lore fan? Apparently, there's a lot of lore you've missed so, instead of getting upset that Diablo 3 wasn't up to your expectations, you should go read the books that are out.

I did read up on the Sin War Trilogy, and like the Dark Templar Trilogy, despite my reservations about the changes, I was waiting to see how the game would handle the 'new lore' and it failed miserably, thus I no longer care for the outside lore because it sucks. I am a lore fan, but only of what is in the manual and the game.

So you consider it a plot hole when a boss says, "You will never make it out alive," and yet you do?

The point I was trying to make and honestly should have expanded upon was that apparently being ordinary mortals isn't good enough anymore and that's what ruined it. Diablo 1 and 2 were compelling because mere mortals, using nothing more than mysticism, sorcery, strength, technique, and teamwork, managed to bring down the Evils that not even Heaven could vanquish. Now humans are all really Gohan on the inside and anything they do now is tainted by that fact.

I can tell from the rushed speech you're using that you're cranky and tired. So I'll forgive the out burst. But, just know, I warned you how ever long ago it was that you were setting yourself up for disaster. I went into the game with realistic, clear expectations set by the previous games, and I was, again not disappointed. That is why I enjoy SC2 and D3 more than other people. Nostalgia is the ruiner of fun; not just Chris Metzen. When I first played Diablo 2, I was disappointed this the setting. It was no longer dark and terrifying and that's what the entire series is about. Therefore, how could expect anything less after seeing a screenshot?

And I can tell by this you're just an obnoxious tool. Saying Nostalgia doesn't win you an argument, you have to back it up. I told you, I played the first 2 games again after many years and they were still compelling, well written and well acted. If that's setting my standards too high, then I'd rather be bitter and stick with 'Nostalgia' than lowering myself down out of desperation for amusement.

[Visions of Khas]

So even though a mortal managed to take out the Prime Evils and their minions years before the world stone was destroyed, somehow a 'mere mortal' can't possibly take them out.

Diablo Lore 101:

• The Eternal Conflict is the never-ending war waged between Heaven and Hell, led by the Angiris Council and the Prime Evils, respectively.

• Inarius and Lilith, high-ranking members of either side, decide the Conflict is pointless and forge an alliance of angels and demons. The offspring Nephalem are pretty much Protoss-Zerg Hybrids, combining the best of each species.

• The Nephalem are dispossessed of their awesome power by the world stone.

• Centuries later, Diablo, Mephisto and Baal are killed by talented humans.

• Two decades pass; the world stone has been destroyed, allowing the Nephalem legacy to resurface.

• Prime Evil Diablo (embodiment of the most powerful evils) is vanquished by a party of Nephalem (the embodiment of the best of the best, period).

• Fin.



I like Diablo and StarCraft not because they're the embodiment of amazing stories and dialog, but because they are a distillation of all the things I love of horror-fantasy and sci-fi, respectively. The fact that D3 has a story automatically improves upon its predecessors.

[TheEconomist]

The beta wasn't far off.

I had assumed you were talking about gameplay. If you were talking about story, that's even worse than judging its gameplay, no matter how right it turned out to be.

yet still maintained the atmospheric minimalism

I'd have to STRONGLY disagree there. I remember one of my first impressions of Diablo 2 being that it was almost a carebear version of Diablo 1. There was nothing like the final level of Hell or The Butcher in Diablo 2.

Just compare the game's Hell levels:




The music, the colors, the environments, the dialogue, the entire game's feeling had already begun to move towards less horror. What made Diablo great has been lost since the first one. It's been losing more and more of it since then. Hence, why I said you should have seen this coming. In fact, somehow I knew this trend would continue in 2001, when the first was released. It was proven true with Diablo 2's XP and its been proven true again. Whenever you went into town, you were told of the horrors that befell the town before you came and while you were there. There was far, far less of that in Diablo 2. In fact, there was very, very little of it. Diablo 3 is carrying on the tradition. I don't know why you're just picking up on it now.

Thankfully, its still somewhat alive in the books.

thus I no longer care for the outside lore because it sucks

I'm hoping your irrationality is because of a long gaming binge you've been on. This is a completely asinine statement, even if you never get to grasp it because you don't read the books. Diablo's in-game story is bad because of the gameplay hindering it. The books have no such problems, therefore, it can reach its full potential. Ignoring the books because Diablo 3 was bad is retarded, at best. It has nothing to do with it. The story in Diablo is told poorly, the story in the Sin War trilogy is told well. I was introduced to this story change in the books, and I had a difference response than you. Why? Quite possibly be because it wasn't thrown at me in some short lines of dialogue, and, instead, was built up and expanded upon over 3 books and 1500 or so pages.

And I can tell by this you're just an obnoxious tool.

And you're acting like a childish brat who didn't get his way. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!! DIABLO 3 DISAPPOINTED ME, MOMMY!!! WAAAAAAAH!!!

[Visions of Khas]

yet still maintained the atmospheric minimalism

I'd have to STRONGLY disagree there. I remember one of my first impressions of Diablo 2 being that it was almost a carebear version of Diablo 1. There was nothing like the final level of Hell or The Butcher in Diablo 2.

I have to disagree, Tychus. I much preferred Diablo 2's atmosphere. Diablo 1 was far too monotonous, therefor arguably minimalist. D2 however varied its mood; you had some relief from periods of "despair" and doom and gloom in town. This was my biggest gripe against Book of Eli; it was one-toned. As was D1.

For proper pacing and atmosphere, you need some relief. And I believe D2 struck a more balanced approach.

thus I no longer care for the outside lore because it sucks

Yep. I still like it.

[broodmywarcraft]

@Vision of Khas

What I meant was that the Cult members thought that a mortal couldn't take them on. Now I may have taken a leap too far and the cult members thought they were too powerful for a mortal. If so, my bad.

@Tychus Findlay

I had assumed you were talking about gameplay. If you were talking about story, that's even worse than judging its gameplay, no matter how right it turned out to be.

How is it even worse? A month before release and THIS is how they're presenting their story? Pathetic.

I'd have to STRONGLY disagree there.

While I agree that Diablo 2 is not as Terrifying as the original, it was still minimalistic in its dialogue and atmosphere. We didn't to hear Diablo rant half a dozen times or so to get how evil he was.

"Not even Death can Save you From Me!" is better and more terrifying than all of his lines in Diablo 3 put together.

I'm hoping your irrationality is because of a long gaming binge you've been on. This is a completely asinine statement, even if you never get to grasp it because you don't read the books. Diablo's in-game story is bad because of the gameplay hindering it. The books have no such problems, therefore, it can reach its full potential. Ignoring the books because Diablo 3 was bad is retarded, at best. It has nothing to do with it. The story in Diablo is told poorly, the story in the Sin War trilogy is told well. I was introduced to this story change in the books, and I had a difference response than you. Why? Quite possibly be because it wasn't thrown at me in some short lines of dialogue, and, instead, was built up and expanded upon over 3 books and 1500 or so pages.

More story does not mean better story, and certainly telling someone they need to go read the books in order to get it is moronic. Games should stand on their own, or at least with the manual that comes with them. You wouldn't go into a movie and then be told, oh you had to read a half a dozen books or so in order to fully comprehend it. I don't care how good the books are, it's poor storytelling period.

And it is not asinine to draw a line in the lore. There are plenty of mediums where that happens. The Star Wars Prequels vs the Originals, Terminator 1&2 vs 3&4, Alien and Aliens Vs 3 and Resurrection, hell Mass Effect 3's ending, and that's just scratching the surface of broken bases.

And Diablo's story was not poorly told. It just wasn't spoon fed to you, held your hand, or handed you the script. Nothing in the gameplay hinders it, you were given the background, the stakes and then you executed it, it meshed perfectly with the gameplay.

Unlike Diablo 3 where you were stopped with some half assed hand drawn cinematic that just repeated what you already knew or given a cinematic prior to a boss fight.

And you're acting like a childish brat who didn't get his way. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!! DIABLO 3 DISAPPOINTED ME, MOMMY!!! WAAAAAAAH!!!

Um, who was the one who ranted as me with a series of pompous assumptions because I apparently burst their overblown bubble with the comment "It was worse than Starcraft 2"?

What's the matter? Were you the master of your domain here until I came around and sewed doubt? Seriously, anyone who responses to anyone like that has ego issues.

[Gradius]

Um, who was the one who ranted as me with a series of pompous assumptions because I apparently burst their overblown bubble with the comment "It was worse than Starcraft 2"?

I do not see on what planet it could be worse than WoL. Let's recap:

Hidden Content:

D3 has many major setbacks for the player:
1) A major character (Cain) dies in the first act. Leah basically dies as well. The only person to die in WoL in actual canon is Tychus (the guy who was basically working against you the whole time, he was the Adria of WoL).
2) Tyrael loses all his powers and never regains it. In WoL this would be the equivalent of recruiting Tosh only after he loses the support of his spectre army.
3) Your time spent helping Zoltun Kulle ends up being worthless since he betrays you.
4) Your time spent killing Belial and Asmodan ends up screwing you over by making Diablo only more powerful. These last two things are the equivalent of gathering the artifact in WoL only for it to fall in the wrong hands. Really, the only part of the game that wasn't in vain was putting together Tyrael's sword pieces. The entire tone of the game is sort of dark. Compare this to WoL where you basically accomplish all your stated goals as trumpets of victory and happiness play.
5) Heaven gets ransacked along with pretty much everything else. This is the equivalent of the Hyperion getting severely damaged.

Along with its share of plot twists, I think the story ended up being better than WoL. I'm probably the only one thought who didn't think it was obvious that the Emperor = Belial. I don't know, it was definitely a possibility, and maybe I'm just slow, but I bought the Emperor's explanation at the time. Also, the generic threatening banter of villains was offset by good worldbuilding and the interesting things people said in their downtime. I came to actually care about the templar and the scoundrel.

Now, with that being said, I have to agree that WoL's juvenile "you always win syndrome" is back in full-force. There was a sort of disconnect as to whether my player was a random human with exceptional talent, or God incarnate. There was no weakening rituals or anything like that for the lords of hell that you defeated. You just bitchslapped them back to the 13th layer of hell like a god damn badass. It's like...erm, what? With this kind of power you could punch a hole in God as well as the rest of the high heavens. In the meantime, the rest of the weak humans labor to hold the line against menial demonic forces. But again, and maybe my standards have been lowered by WoL, but this is sort of to be expected for a mindless dungeon-crawler clicking game.

Also, this "end of the world" crap is really getting old. I really hope Blizzard tries something else in their upcoming games. =/

[TheEconomist]

A month before release and THIS is how they're presenting their story? Pathetic.

What do you expect from a game that puts its story behind gameplay?

"Not even Death can Save you From Me!" is better and more terrifying than all of his lines in Diablo 3 put together.

Agreed.

More story does not mean better story

Agreed.

And Diablo's story was not poorly told.

Agreed. Not sure if you think I said it was poorly told though ....

It just wasn't spoon fed to you, held your hand, or handed you the script. Nothing in the gameplay hinders it, you were given the background, the stakes and then you executed it, it meshed perfectly with the gameplay.

Agreed.

Unlike Diablo 3 where you were stopped with some half assed hand drawn cinematic that just repeated what you already knew or given a cinematic prior to a boss fight.

Agreed.

certainly telling someone they need to go read the books in order to get it is moronic.

Agreed. However, I never said, "Go read the books so you'll get the story." I said, if you want a good story in the Diablo universe go read the book. Should be obvious. You're never going to get it in the game for reasons I've stated ad nauseum. Its a simple statement yet you've missed it. How long was your gaming binge?

I apparently burst their overblown bubble with the comment "It was worse than Starcraft 2"

How would that burst my bubble? I agree with you. Sure, I haven't decided which story was worse: SC2 or D3, but it doesn't matter. The core meaning of your statement I agree with. They're both awful. However, only SC2 had given reason for you to be hopeful for a good story since SC1 had a good story. The Diablo series has only ever had ambiance.

Were you the master of your domain here until I came around and sewed doubt?

I have no idea what you are talking about or why you are going on about this. You are either exhausted, pathetically emotional, or just stupid. I especially don't know how you could sow doubt in me by AGREEING with me. The only thing we've been debating on is whether or not Blizzard had given you any reason to expect more. I've agreed many times that Diablo 3's story is crap. I just argued that you should never have gotten your hopes up to begin with. This should be incredibly obvious and your statements are so way out there that I'm hoping you're as exhausted as you seem. Or else, you're developing early stages of some psychosis or having some bad side effects from hallucinogenic drugs.

I said you were acting like a child because you're getting upset over a game and insulting someone for no reason. Both are childish qualities. Honestly, that's exactly how your post comes off as. I could totally picture you pulling your hair our or crying over how disappointed you are in the game. That's the only reason I can see for you to make this about emotions (pride, paranoia, ad hominem) when its only about reason, you must be a state of strong emotion yourself. We're talking about your unrealistic expectations and rose-tinted nostalgia glasses making you believe the Diablo series has ever had a good story and making you expect Diablo 3 to somehow be different. It was stupid of you to expect that and I told you that weeks/months ago. You don't watch the first two Indiana Jones and then expect the third one to somehow be anything more than a Hollywood-esque action movie.

Now, go get some sleep. I'd be willing to bet you'll have a good laugh at your statements once you've rested. You really are acting erratic and making strange accusations that have no basis in reality.

---

You had some relief from periods of "despair" and doom and gloom in town.

That's what I disliked about it.

For proper pacing and atmosphere, you need some relief.

This isn't a movie, book, or television series. It's a game meant to engross me in its world. You can't do that if it all of a sudden loses what made it interesting to begin with. Diablo's gameplay was originally based around feeling week and powerless against hordes of terrifying mosnters. Diablo 1 did that admirably. Diablo 2 began the transition towards a more dark fantasy instead of horror fantasy. I enjoyed it immensely, but not as much as the original. Partly because it was losing its uniqueness from other worlds. Now, I can barely tell the difference between Diablo 3 and WarCraft during the Burning Legion eras of the lore.

[Visions of Khas]

Diablo's gameplay was originally based around feeling week and powerless against hordes of terrifying mosnters.

And by hordes of demons, you mean, uh... the piles of bodies littering the floor?

Yep. Weak. Right.



This is just me, but I hated the music of Diablo 1, though it did serve its purpose. I felt like I was in a dank cellar alone. All by my lonesome. And yes, it would have been nice if there had been a little more of this in D2. But people naturally become desensitized of fear and foreboding, so though this isn't a movie or book that same ambient story-telling principle applies. It was the lack of variety in D1 that bored me.

Now, I haven't played D3 yet -- and god help me I will at my earliest convenience -- but I agree that the worlds of Blizzard are starting to converge. I swear, the cosmologies of WarCraft and Diablo could almost seamlessly mesh at this point, especially if you've read the Book of Cain. Christ. -.-


Now excuse me as I go terrify myself in the Creepy subReddit. All this talk of terror has made me hungry.

[broodmywarcraft]

Again with the Nostalgia attack Tychus, knock it off! I've already told you time and time again, I played the games recently, they still hold up. That's the difference between good and bad Nostalgia. The Lion King came out recently, and I watched it again, and it still held up. And yeah, the Third Indiana Jones movie was an action movie, but it had good acting and writing to back it up

And telling me I'm on drugs, in early stages of psychosis, or lacking sleep, is not really an effective counter argument, it's just a cheap attack. I'm not on drugs, my mental state seems fine, and I actually overslept a little today. I expected more from you

Agreed. Not sure if you think I said it was poorly told though ....

I reread your post, you said the in-game story was bad because the gameplay hindered it, not that the Diablo's story was poorly told. My bad, but regardless, I disagree though, and I responded above.

And unrealistic expectations? Do you even know what I was expecting? After knowing about the various retcons, lore changes, and Starcraft 2, I was expecting crap, but I didn't think it was going to be this bad. I tried holding out hope that there may have been something, anything, that would compel me to think otherwise, but it didn't.

And what would have been wrong to at least expect something along the lines of the last two games? Was that unrealistic? What? I should just accept crap and try to enjoy it? Is that the standard you've set and you're attacking me in order to prove you made the right call?

And if I seem emotional, it's because I care and that's Blizzard's greatest accomplishment, was to make me care about the universe and its characters and to see a company once known for quality storytelling fall so far is just sad.

What exactly are you trying to get at here? You keep trying to paint me as a whiny child yet all I see is a whiny brat telling me what my problems are and how I should really be thinking. You insulted me when you went off on that rant Tychus! What did you expect when you treat someone like they don't know any better? You're gonna get flak!

And my hair is fine

[broodmywarcraft]

I have to disagree, Tychus. I much preferred Diablo 2's atmosphere. Diablo 1 was far too monotonous, therefor arguably minimalist. D2 however varied its mood; you had some relief from periods of "despair" and doom and gloom in town. This was my biggest gripe against Book of Eli; it was one-toned. As was D1.

For proper pacing and atmosphere, you need some relief. And I believe D2 struck a more balanced approach.

Agreed, though I will say Diablo 1's overbearing claustrophobia scared the pants off me at night.

And I liked the Book of Eli, though you do have a point about the tone. The action was quite good though.

Yep. I still like it.

They have their moments. Zeratul and Kerrigan in the Dark Templar Saga are actually better than their game counterparts in SC2.