TeamLiquid.net Article: Zerg & Larva Injection

[Nicol Bolas]

someday people will realize just how beneficial the "outdated UI" was to Starcraft 1 gamplay. Not saying it needs to stay for Starcraft 2 but there were allot of positive things that came out of having to "fight the UI."

Only by accident. Intentional gameplay is always preferred to accidents.

[ArcherofAiur]

Only by accident. Intentional gameplay is always preferred to accidents.

I guess. Still given the choice between a spell that is so hard that I cast it slowly and a spell that is easy but I am forced to cast it slowly I think im inclined to take the hard one. At least if I work hard enough at the first I can cast it faster.

Likewise its great that the computer mines for me but now if I want to get a bigger army then my opponent there is no way for me to do so. I would rather that I be the limitation rather then the game impose an artificial limitiation.

[Santrega]

Yes. That's why it's a nerf. That doesn't explain why it's bad.

So you have to anticipate when using Psi Storm. Personally, I like it. It makes it more of a skill than just your ability to click. You have to scout your enemy's forces; you have to know in advance when they're coming in. And so on. It can't just be used as a purely reactionary "murder stuff now" ability.

And again, the delay is not that long.



Total nonsense. Any number of decisions in an RTS game take a while to manifest. That's the entire basis of a timing attack: you're attacking someone at a point where they've made some decision, but the benefits of that decision have not yet materialized. They started the Dragoon Range upgrade, but it isn't finished yet. And so on.

Reaper mines have a delay between laying them and them exploding. Yamato has always had a delay between when you tell it to fire and when it actually does. And so on.



Um, why? It still takes a fixed quantity of time for the unit to be built. Just as it takes a fixed quantity of time for Yamato Cannon to be fired. Just as it takes a fixed quantity of time for Psi Storm to be cast. Just as it takes a fixed quantity of time for a SC1 Dragoon to fire its weapon (between the moment you tell it to fire and the bolt actually launches). Hell, there are many attacks that take time between the firing and when the bullet actually hits. Some don't take time (Marines, Hydras, etc), but some do (Goliath missiles, Turrets, Photon Canons, etc).

How is this any different?

Theres a huge difference between yamato cannon, and the mines compared to PSI storm.

1) Yamato cannon when started will find its target no matter what, psi storm will not find the group of units you are originally trying to hit because by the time it hits, the units will have moved.

2) Mines are used knowing that they can be killed off before they are destroyed, the whole point is to drop as many as you can and hope to do as much damage as possible, except its not a delay to throw the mine, its a delay before it explodes. Mines will likely be used on buildings, which wont be able to move out of the way before the mines hit, while PSI storm is used on a mass invading army, in which if you miss, you are in one hell of a bad situation.

Not to mention HT's werent exactly super powered units, as it was quite easy to pick them off. Now it will be even easier as they will hesitate before they use psi storm. Try picking off a BC before it uses its yamato cannon... just a tiny bit more difficult, and since reapers mines are sent instantly after clicking a target as long as its close enough, you cant even pick them off before the mines are thrown.

Additionally, Reaper mines are meant for sabotage and harassment, while PSI storm is mostly going to be used for defending against large armies, something you certainly want to make the most of.

[Nicol Bolas]

Likewise its great that the computer mines for me but now if I want to get a bigger army then my opponent there is no way for me to do so. I would rather that I be the limitation rather then the game impose an artificial limitiation.

That only shows that the StarCraft resourcing model itself is broken. Because if your ability to do a brainless, mechanical task best suited to a computer is the definition of "good," then something is seriously wrong with your core game design.

Not to mention HT's werent exactly super powered units, as it was quite easy to pick them off.

Really? It's funny how picking off HTs almost never happened in SC1, yet it was "quite easy" to do so.

Indeed, the only effective unit for actually killing HTs before they fire off their Psi Storms were Mutalisks. And even those were basically guaranteed to be forfeit when you try to take them out, thanks to instant Psi Storm damage and the prevalence of Dragoons.

Reaper mines are meant for sabotage and harassment

Yeah, and the Scout was meant to be a Scout. What something's meant to be and what it eventually gets used as have only rarely been similar.

Reaper mines will be used where the Terran player can use them. We saw them employed in actual battle in BR2.

[Jmac]

Hmmmm...

The discussion in this thread, while lively, is mostly off topic.

A new TeamLiquid forum post on Karune's Protoss counter to 1-Hatch Queen:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=101510

This TeamLiquid forum post speaks of first-hand experience vs. 1-Hatch Queen at PAX 2009. Additionally, Karune has provided his interpretation of the Zerg situation in addition to his preferred counter-play when fielding Protoss. Karune downplays the significance of 1-Hatch Queen and states that a Protoss ~wall-in can lead to a balanced Protoss vs. 1-Hatch Queen game.

[ArcherofAiur]

That only shows that the StarCraft resourcing model itself is broken. Because if your ability to do a brainless, mechanical task best suited to a computer is the definition of "good," then something is seriously wrong with your core game design.

There were some bad things about the SC1 macro system but there were also allot of good things. Being able to out compete the opponent economically definatly equals good.

And with psi storm, I would consider the user lag time like in SC1 better then this new artificial lag time.

[Santrega]

Really? It's funny how picking off HTs almost never happened in SC1, yet it was "quite easy" to do so.

Indeed, the only effective unit for actually killing HTs before they fire off their Psi Storms were Mutalisks. And even those were basically guaranteed to be forfeit when you try to take them out, thanks to instant Psi Storm damage and the prevalence of Dragoons.

Well, maybe you almost never could kill HTs, but I found picking them off pretty easy, and im not even that good at the game. All you have to do is surround them with any unit, on the ground works best as they cant run away. Most of the time they will cast psi storm as you run toward them, usually casting psi-storm on the HT itself. Sometimes there was a bit of a cast delay in the original game, mostly because of the pathing and bugginess of sc. An intentional delay will create many more situations where you accidentally click a unit coming toward your HT, rather than the ground, and by the time the storm actually hits, it will hit both that unit and your HT.

[Pandonetho]

Well, maybe you almost never could kill HTs, but I found picking them off pretty easy, and im not even that good at the game

Usually when people talk about SC1 examples, they're talking about the professionals which I assume Nicol is doing.

Second, SC1 probably isn't even balanced unless you take it to the highest degree of skill. The only reason why people claim SC1 is balanced is because of the pro scene, I highly doubt the "perfect" balance is there for casuals.

An intentional delay will create many more situations where you accidentally click a unit coming toward your HT, rather than the ground, and by the time the storm actually hits, it will hit both that unit and your HT.

What? How does an intentional delay affect AT ALL your ability to click something? Just because the storm has a minor delay coming out, does not suddenly mean your hand eye coordination skills went down the drain.

Second of all, is the only reason why you are complaining about a minor delay is because you're too scared to adapt? Honestly.

[RamiZ]

Well, maybe you almost never could kill HTs, but I found picking them off pretty easy, and im not even that good at the game. All you have to do is surround them with any unit, on the ground works best as they cant run away.

Ahahahah And yeah of course Protoss will have ONLY HTs and not 20 Zealots, 3 Archons and 10 Dragoons... This made my day.

By your logic, picking BCs are even easier, just make 100 Devourers and you will see how BCs melt, ROFL!

[Santrega]

Usually when people talk about SC1 examples, they're talking about the professionals which I assume Nicol is doing.

Second, SC1 probably isn't even balanced unless you take it to the highest degree of skill. The only reason why people claim SC1 is balanced is because of the pro scene, I highly doubt the "perfect" balance is there for casuals.

Well you'd be assuming wrong, as its clear from all of nicol's arguments that he knows absolutely nothing about the pro scene.

What? How does an intentional delay affect AT ALL your ability to click something? Just because the storm has a minor delay coming out, does not suddenly mean your hand eye coordination skills went down the drain.

I never suggested it would make any difference toward your ability to click something. The problem lies in the fact that the point you are clicking is constantly changing, and in terms of using psi storm is usually in between many units. When these units are on the move its increasingly difficult to hit the ground in between them, and especially so while those units are rushing toward your own army, or unlucky HT.

Second of all, is the only reason why you are complaining about a minor delay is because you're too scared to adapt? Honestly.

It's not that im afraid to adapt, as this is not an argument against an improved user interface as that argument was used for in the past. This is a poor attempt to balance an ability, in my opinion.

If it makes it into the final stages of the game, than I have no choice but to accept it and adapt, but I plan to make it absolutely clear to you and to whomever I talk to that I do not like this one particular change. I don't like the fact that an instant decision such as where to use an ability has become a delayed reaction to that decision. I like the fast acting and reacting games involved in starcraft, where its not a hope to get lucky action, but a strategic action.

They removed being able to block attacks on high ground and behind obstacles because it added luck, now they add luck to trying to hit your opponent with an ability? It makes very little sense.

Ahahahah And yeah of course Protoss will have ONLY HTs and not 20 Zealots, 3 Archons and 10 Dragoons... This made my day.

By your logic, picking BCs are even easier, just make 100 Devourers and you will see how BCs melt, ROFL!

I think you took what I said just a tad bit too far. I have had situations where i've had to run a few units around an army to get to the high templars in the back. Most of the time it only takes a few to slow down and interfere with the HTs path while you kill it, and this is what I meant.