TeamLiquid.net Article: Zerg & Larva Injection

[Pandonetho]

You're just being hyperbolic. Psi Storm was always extremely situational because of its nature. you could destroy your entire army with the wrong usage of it.

Your arguments are getting weaker with each post. Since when has anyone EVER destroyed their own army with storm? You'd literally have to be an absolute complete noob or a retard to do that.

I really wish you'd see that you're the one throwing around BS. A spammable ability with a 1s delay is not better than a carefully calculated placement of fewer storms. Why should we balance around this terrible idea like it's the status quo? We're still in alpha, anything goes.

Do you even know what you're talking about? The Obelisk's ability first of all is not a way to balance storm. Second of all, storm was always spammable in SC1. The delay actually makes the player think for a sec about where they want to place it.How is removing the delay going to make people place storms using more calculations? Your logic is screwed.

[Draco]

Your arguments are getting weaker with each post. Since when has anyone EVER destroyed their own army with storm? You'd literally have to be an absolute complete noob or a retard to do that.



Do you even know what you're talking about? The Obelisk's ability first of all is not a way to balance storm. Second of all, storm was always spammable in SC1. The delay actually makes the player think for a sec about where they want to place it.How is removing the delay going to make people place storms using more calculations? Your logic is screwed.

Your ad homs are as pathetic as your bandwagoning, so don't quit your day job. I was just giving an example. Psionic Storm is situational, to say otherwise is completely and utterly retarded. You need a mass of units not in transit that's nowhere near your own units in order for it be worth all that gas.

Storm was never spammable in SC1. You were limited to 2-3 storms per HT if you were lucky and you had to make sure you made damn use of them before they got sniped rather easily. Maybe in the fastest maps you played you could do whatever the hell you wanted.

The removal of the delay brings back more correspondence of your decision making to the spell itself. "I want the storm here, now" is a much more definitive representation of your will than an artificial 1s cast time based on the projection of what the opponent's going to do in this omnidirectional field. Since it's more precise, it's more calculated, end of story.

Making the storm more numerous but balancing it with a delay is essentially debasing the strategic component of storm and doing the exact opposite of what you guys are arguing for. At least I'm not contradicting myself.

If you guys want artificially induced lag and extra high latency, go play B.net 1.0 for God's sakes.

[Pandonetho]

Your ad homs are as pathetic as your bandwagoning, so don't quit your day job.

Do you even know what ad hominem is? lol use a dictionary next time. Bandwagoning? You're more retarded than I thought.

was just giving an example.

An extremely shitty example if I ever saw it, so shitty that your example is invalid because it never happens.

Psionic Storm is situational, to say otherwise is completely and utterly retarded.

lol says the guy who provides a shitty example with no other evidence to back up his claim.

You need a mass of units not in transit that's nowhere near your own units in order for it be worth all that gas.

Yeah, right. Storm is used on many units that move including every god damn Zerg unit that there is, vultures, and PvP battles. It can be used for almost every battle situation that you're in, go ahead and prove otherwise.

Storm was never spammable in SC1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u_tBTS3CE8

You were limited to 2-3 storms per HT if you were lucky and you had to make sure you made damn use of them before they got sniped rather easily.

Your point? You're still limited to that amount in SC2 unless you're near an obelisk, which is 200 minerals and most certainly almost always going to be by your mineral line. I don't get how you think storm is more spammable in SC2, you have no proof to back up that claim. Not only that, with the trend that gas is harder to attain, HTs won't be as spammed as in SC1. And even if they are easily sniped in SC1, what's changed about that in SC2? Absolutely nothing.

The removal of the delay brings back more correspondence of your decision making to the spell itself. "I want the storm here, now" is a much more definitive representation of your will than an artificial 1s cast time based on the projection of what the opponent's going to do in this omnidirectional field. Since it's more precise, it's more calculated, end of story.

Nice bullshit. "Oh look enemies here, click" is not more calculated than "how far do I have to place the storm to hit those moving enemies at the right time."

Making the storm more numerous but balancing it with a delay is essentially debasing the strategic component of storm and doing the exact opposite of what you guys are arguing for. At least I'm not contradicting myself.

Oh right, I love your proof for where you suddenly got the idea for where storm is more numerous. Let's see, there was a cooldown introduced for storm, gas is harder to get, an obelisk will transfer up to 1 HT at most for maximum energy, and is going to be near your mineral line nowhere near the battlefield. And you're saying it's going to be more numerous? You're an idiot, you don't even know what you're talking about.

If you guys want artificially induced lag and extra high latency, go play B.net 1.0 for God's sakes.

Yes because a delay is exactly the same as lag and high latency.

[deadlock]

It should be pointed out that half-hitting with a Psi Storm is still hitting with it. They're not able to avoid all possible Storm damage.

And again, if you're in a choke point, there's no dodging.

nobody's claiming that it will be impossible to hit anything ever with a delayed storm. it will be easier for the attacker though and makes storming too reactive (you have to wait for them to stop dodging)

Maybe those "few people" need to build something to protect their Templar. Like Phoenixes. You know, units that can go and hunt down those Mutalisks?

Well why bother with HTs then

This isn't StarCraft 1 anymore. You're going to have to learn how to cope with different things.

oh absolutely, i don't even think we should bring storm back, let's get something new. btw i never played sc competitively, i've only ever taken wc seriously at all

Um, you've got it backwards. The ability to spam storms is balanced by the delay time. That is, if you remove one, you remove the other.

how does that balance it? if you're spamming storms you're spamming them and not looking where you're casting, and delay time becomes mostly irrelevant because you're trying to hit all locations (wherever they dodge to, they will be hit by a storm).

I really wish people would stop throwing BS out there that has been beaten down so many times. There are many abilities, in SC1 and SC2, that have a delay between the moment of cast and the start of the effect.

Yeah but with most of them it's not possible to miss after you cast them. I think its comparable to trying to counter dryads with siege in WC3, it's certainly possible, but the fact that the attack is dodgeable means that a skilled microer won't take much damage at all from siege unless you keep him busy (and dryads can kite effectively).

[Pandonetho]

nobody's claiming that it will be impossible to hit anything ever with a delayed storm. it will be easier for the attacker though and makes storming too reactive (you have to wait for them to stop dodging)

Wow, where are people GETTING this from? Please, instead of making blind claims EXPLAIN how it will be easier for the attacker? Are you saying he's going to know where you're going to storm? Are you saying that when he attacks he's going to constantly be moving instead of shooting? Which might I add, is NOT ATTACKING, it's called MOVING while getting owned by enemy troops. Second of all, no, you DON'T have to wait till they stop moving, you just have to time where they're going to move. People are making way too big of a damn deal about this. Predicting where they will move is not impossible unless the person moving his units is a retard and moving his units in a nonpredictable and non-beneficial way. What, is he going to move his hydras up then down then down some more and then left and then right? No. Christ.

Well why bother with HTs then

Are you serious? Are you just complaining because something changed? Because this is a pathetic argument. People build HT to I don't know, storm masses of ground units that the Phoenix can't hit? Make use of the new improved hallucination? Use phase shift? Whatever.

how does that balance it? if you're spamming storms you're spamming them and not looking where you're casting, and delay time becomes mostly irrelevant because you're trying to hit all locations (wherever they dodge to, they will be hit by a storm).

Clearly you don't understand the concept of smartcasting or magic boxes. Secondly, spamming storms is a BAD idea with the reports that people have been giving about gas difficulty, and the delay is definitely not something that makes you want to spam storm. Use some logic please.

Yeah but with most of them it's not possible to miss after you cast them. I think its comparable to trying to counter dryads with siege in WC3, it's certainly possible, but the fact that the attack is dodgeable means that a skilled microer won't take much damage at all from siege unless you keep him busy (and dryads can kite effectively).

And yet this complaint is really only relevant to those who just don't like an ounce of change. Does anyone want to kindly point me to the law book where making a spell use a delay is against the Law? That making the spell that much more effective in the hands of a skilled player against the Law? That a new game can't do things differently?

[RamiZ]

Storm was never spammable in SC1. You were limited to 2-3 storms per HT if you were lucky and you had to make sure you made damn use of them before they got sniped rather easily.

Oh damn, I couldnt stop laughing at this.

[Draco]

Yeah, right. Storm is used on many units that move including every god damn Zerg unit that there is, vultures, and PvP battles. It can be used for almost every battle situation that you're in, go ahead and prove otherwise.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u_tBTS3CE8



Your point? You're still limited to that amount in SC2 unless you're near an obelisk, which is 200 minerals and most certainly almost always going to be by your mineral line. I don't get how you think storm is more spammable in SC2, you have no proof to back up that claim. Not only that, with the trend that gas is harder to attain, HTs won't be as spammed as in SC1. And even if they are easily sniped in SC1, what's changed about that in SC2? Absolutely nothing.



Nice bullshit. "Oh look enemies here, click" is not more calculated than "how far do I have to place the storm to hit those moving enemies at the right time."



Oh right, I love your proof for where you suddenly got the idea for where storm is more numerous. Let's see, there was a cooldown introduced for storm, gas is harder to get, an obelisk will transfer up to 1 HT at most for maximum energy, and is going to be near your mineral line nowhere near the battlefield. And you're saying it's going to be more numerous? You're an idiot, you don't even know what you're talking about.



Yes because a delay is exactly the same as lag and high latency.

You're hurt, I understand. But what you don't understand is that this delay does nothing for that lack of variety problem. I've been saying it's been situational as a tactic. If you want more varied strategy, retarding the abilities reaction speed is not going to change the niche it occupies. Nobody listens to my first argument. This tweak does nothing outside of the usual damage nerf or energy nerf but has the added element of being more frustrating.

Guessing games is not more calculative, sorry. There's no way to anticipate which direction an army will move when they see those HTs, no matter how calculative you think you are.

It's simple really. You guys keep saying it's more storms balanced by high delay. Low energy cost, high delay, and internal cooldown means that you use the storm as often as possible to get that CD back up. It breaks harass attempts and you can technically just cycle through a few HTs to continually keep someone at bay. It's lame. The SC1 model was far better for all intents and purposes.

Is there a distinction between high latency and this? I don't see a beneficial one. High latency is more responsive and at least everything is at that speed.

[deadlock]

Wow, where are people GETTING this from? Please, instead of making blind claims EXPLAIN how it will be easier for the attacker? Are you saying he's going to know where you're going to storm?

no but dodging doesn't cost you anything and you can dodge in any direction (storm only has one chance to hit, and if you miss you lose the mana)

Are you saying that when he attacks he's going to constantly be moving instead of shooting?

nah but it only takes an instant to attack whilst storm has delay+player reaction speed+plus probable lag (let's be realistic fellas)

Which might I add, is NOT ATTACKING, it's called MOVING while getting owned by enemy troops.

you mean the HTs with their clumsy delayed storms? because they won't be owning anybody mate

Second of all, no, you DON'T have to wait till they stop moving, you just have to time where they're going to move.

if you're prescient you should play the stock market and not starcraft.

People are making way too big of a damn deal about this. Predicting where they will move is not impossible unless the person moving his units is a retard and moving his units in a nonpredictable and non-beneficial way.

what do you mean non-beneficial? the benefit from dodging is evading the psi-storm. this is facilitated by being "nonpredictable".

What, is he going to move his hydras up then down then down some more and then left and then right? No. Christ.

why not?

Are you serious? Are you just complaining because something changed? Because this is a pathetic argument. People build HT to I don't know, storm masses of ground units that the Phoenix can't hit? Make use of the new improved hallucination? Use phase shift? Whatever.

not but i think we all like the idea of a fun, balanced storm. blizzard has to make things FUN for the player first time around, remember that, otherwise the game will flop and nobody will buy the expansions, i'll probably torrent them unless the game amazes me.

let's face it, masses of phoenixes will only get fucked up by corruptors

Clearly you don't understand the concept of smartcasting or magic boxes.

well, elaborate please

Secondly, spamming storms is a BAD idea with the reports that people have been giving about gas difficulty, and the delay is definitely not something that makes you want to spam storm.

so how the fuck are we meant to hit anybody if we don't spam it? it's got a shitty delay that favours the dodger and we can't cast it very often either. it is however very powerful now (is this true?) and potentially gamewinning based on chance. Nice one blizz

And yet this complaint is really only relevant to those who just don't like an ounce of change.

i like changing mutalisks into corpses and this won't happen with a shitty storm

Does anyone want to kindly point me to the law book where making a spell use a delay is against the Law?

i don't get what you're saying here.

That making the spell that much more effective in the hands of a skilled player against the Law? That a new game can't do things differently?

it can do things however it wants, but i would rather it didn't do them stupidly.

EDIT: btw if you and nicol bolas are both going to argue with me can you coordinate your efforts or something so i don't have to do lots of posts. Cheers

[Pandonetho]

You're hurt, I understand. But what you don't understand is that this delay does nothing for that lack of variety problem. I've been saying it's been situational as a tactic. If you want more varied strategy, retarding the abilities reaction speed is not going to change the niche it occupies. Nobody listens to my first argument. This tweak does nothing outside of the usual damage nerf or energy nerf but has the added element of being more frustrating.

Oh yes this is an amazing argument for why the delay is BAD. /sarcasm.
If you're talking about the situational-ness of storm, arguing that this delay is bad is completely unrelated. Get it through your skull.

Guessing games is not more calculative, sorry. There's no way to anticipate which direction an army will move when they see those HTs, no matter how calculative you think you are.

Yet another blind claim that SC is just a guessing game. Because it's SO hard to see hydras walking in one direction, and storming in front of them. Guess what? If they're moving, meaning they're getting shot by your units. If they're attacking, they're not moving, meaning it's a chance to use storm. It's not that hard to understand.

It's simple really. You guys keep saying it's more storms balanced by high delay.

Clearly you didn't even read my post, meaning that you're purposely ignoring my points. This shows more than anything you're an idiot.

Low energy cost, high delay, and internal cooldown means that you use the storm as often as possible to get that CD back up.

Oh you're SO smart! And in SC1, it's low energy, NO cooldown, and NO delay, and that is somehow less spammable?

It breaks harass attempts and you can technically just cycle through a few HTs to continually keep someone at bay. It's lame. The SC1 model was far better for all intents and purposes.

It's official, you don't even know what you're talking about.

Is there a distinction between high latency and this? I don't see one. High latency is more responsive and at least everything is at that speed.

Responsive? This delay doesn't affect responsiveness at all, it's FIXED.

no but dodging doesn't cost you anything and you can dodge in any direction (storm only has one chance to hit, and if you miss you lose the mana)

So what? You can dodge in any direction, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE ALLOWED TO DODGE, IS THERE A PROBLEM WITH DODGING?

nah but it only takes an instant to attack whilst storm has delay+player reaction speed+plus probable lag (let's be realistic fellas)

When he attacks, you storm it's that simple. Player reaction isn't slow unless you plain suck hard at this game. Adding a delay or removing the delay does nothing to change player reaction speed or "probable lag" this point is moot.

you mean the HTs with their clumsy delayed storms? because they won't be owning anybody mate

lol are you just trolling or are you really out of a valid argument? I think your post speaks for itself. I don't think you should ever try to debate again because "lol clumsy delayed storm won't be owning anbody" is hardly a valid point. Second of all, you don't send HTs by themselves are you stupid or something? It's called an army.

why not?

Because as I just mentioned, your ARMY is going to be attacking those units which are doing nothing productive but moving randomly.

not but i think we all like the idea of a fun, balanced storm. blizzard has to make things FUN for the player first time around, remember that, otherwise the game will flop and nobody will buy the expansions, i'll probably torrent them unless the game amazes me.

Glad you think you're the all deciding player who decides what's fun or not, give me a break.

well, elaborate please

Why are you even in this debate if you don't even know simple things such as these? Christ I don't even know why I'm talking to you, convincing you is like trying to convince a pile of flaming shit.

so how the fuck are we meant to hit anybody if we don't spam it? it's got a shitty delay that favours the dodger and we can't cast it very often either. it is however very powerful now (is this true?) and potentially gamewinning based on chance. Nice one blizz

You're meant to hit them by placing storms in the proper place, like how storms were ALWAYS used. It's not based on chance, I can only facepalm at your stupidity.

i like changing mutalisks into corpses and this won't happen with a shitty storm

A shitty storm? Is that what you call it now? You know nothing about SC1 or SC2 I think I'm through talking to you.

EDIT: btw if you and nicol bolas are both going to argue with me can you coordinate your efforts or something so i don't have to do lots of posts. Cheers

If I were Nicol I would just stop talking to you. Your arguments and points are hardly valid and you should be immediately banned for even attempting.

[Perfecttear]

Storm is ok as it is now, the damage intervals have been reduced from 5 seconds to 3 seconds and the storm now covers a much larger size.
If i would have to choose betwen a 5 second storm , or an 3 second storm with an 1 second delay(3+1), i will always take the one with the delay.
And lol at the guy who said that storm was weak in sc1