TeamLiquid.net Article: Zerg & Larva Injection

[Pandonetho]

Jesus Christ get some reading comprehension. You're saying the problem is that HT was too good of an answer to everything. That means that the niche it occupies is TOO BIG. You must change the niche by MAKING IT SMALLER, not removing it.

Maybe you're the one that needs to improve on your reading comprehension. Since when did I say that the problem with the HT was that it was too good of an answer to everything? Go ahead and quote me on it.

They bounce back and forth to avoid eachother's seige and abilities and then you attack when they're most vulnerable.

Wrong, go watch some pro games and see how starcraft is actually played. Professional Zerg players mass attack a player and then storm dodge in the middle of an attack, they don't bounce around like retards. Protoss players don't storm unless they're directly engaged in battle.

A controlled and fixed delay is still a delay. That's my point. It doesn't matter to the end user that they're delayed 1s because of lag or delayed 1s because Blizzard put it in the programming. They both have a debilitating effect on the ability. You both come to expect them too, if it's a laggy game.

Except for the fact that in a laggy game everything lags and is unpredictable, where this delay is completely fixed.

I never said to expand the niche, that's counterproductive.

So from what you said here,

Psionic Storm is situational, to say otherwise is completely and utterly retarded.

Because psionic storm is situational, and you want to change the niche, I'm supposed to assume you want to make the niche "smaller" than it already is? According to you that is.

And yes, any form of delay is negative. Lag and high latency has never been a positive experience, so I'm perfectly justified in saying that a nontrivial delay is frustrating.

And again with the comparison to lag and latency. Which is completely bull, and they feel completely different. Latency and lag affects everything that you do, a delay is anticipated and taken account for, on one spell. Learn the difference.

btw deadlock just break your fingers I don't think anyone wants to read your garbage anymore.

[Perfecttear]

I just want to point out, that the new storm is harder to dodge than the old one, the old one did all of its damage in 5 seconds, and the new one deals all of its damage in 4 seconds( 3+1 ; if you count the 1 second delay), and not to mention it has a larger area affect, and you have smart casting. So if you look at it, the enemy units have 1 seconds less to dodge or move out of the storm than in sc1, so the new sc2 storm is much harder to dodge. I really don't know what people are complaining, it's not like it's the first spell to have a cast delay.
The new scv2 spell are made with micro in mind, just look at the hunter seeker( who you can also dodge) In my opinion the cast delay ads much more micro to the game, and as explained previously the new storm is much more powerfull than in sc1!

[Draco]

Yeah, right. Storm is used on many units that move including every god damn Zerg unit that there is, vultures, and PvP battles. It can be used for almost every battle situation that you're in, go ahead and prove otherwise.

Oh, what's this, evidence that you like contradicting yourself?

Because psionic storm is situational, and you want to change the niche, I'm supposed to assume you want to make the niche "smaller" than it already is? According to you that is.

I was just arguing that tactically, you need good timing for it. The fact that you're going through great lengths to give me the "true" situations where pros use psionic storm is evidence that it's based on the situation, which if I recall correctly, is the textbook definition of situational. If you want to talk situational as in, "What units should I make in response to my opponent?" then I'm all for making it more situational by partially negating it's overarching effectiveness against anything.

And again with the comparison to lag and latency. Which is completely bull, and they feel completely different. Latency and lag affects everything that you do, a delay is anticipated and taken account for, on one spell. Learn the difference.

And again with this arbitrary distinction. Delays are not enjoyable, delays are not fun. You can label it as predictable and small reaching, but a tiny bite on the ass is still a tiny bite on the ass. I'm not convinced that inducing a nontrivial delay will provide more strategy especially now that the AoE will be increased, making it more unavoidable to compensate for the delay seems to be a dog chasing his own tail.

[Pandonetho]

Oh, what's this, evidence that you like contradicting yourself?

No? Maybe you should read CLOSELY. Is there anywhere in there where I said that was a problem?

I was just arguing that tactically, you need good timing for it. The fact that you're going through great lengths to give me the "true" situations where pros use psionic storm is evidence that it's based on the situation, which if I recall correctly, is the textbook definition of situational. If you want to talk situational as in, "What units should I make in response to my opponent?" then I'm all for making it more situational by partially negating it's overarching effectiveness against anything.

The "true" situations as you call it is in every battle that involved high templars. It is not situational tactically at all. It's "use whenever there are enemies in front of your army."

And again with this arbitrary distinction.

The destinction is not random.

Delays are not enjoyable, delays are not fun.

Right I'm sure you speak for everyone on this game. Why oh why is there a delay when the tank goes into siege mode? So not fun.

[Draco]

No? Maybe you should read CLOSELY. Is there anywhere in there where I said that was a problem?

Well then you made it clear that gameplay variety is not a motive of yours.

The "true" situations as you call it is in every battle that involved high templars. It is not situational tactically at all. It's "use whenever there are enemies in front of your army."

That's in direct contradiction to the statement you made that pros ONLY use storm when they're in the thick of battle and right on top of each other. Storming the Dark Swarms is another example of a situation where it's used tactically by pros. Ubiquitous use can coincide with tactical use.

Right I'm sure you speak for everyone on this game. Why oh why is there a delay when the tank goes into siege mode? So not fun.

Yes, I'm sure everybody loved the awkward seiging and unseiging of tanks and not the carnage they dealt out. Tanks got a very specialized and fun mechanic at the expense of limited mobility, but this HT delay is providing no such benefit.

[n00bonicPlague]

This looks more like a matter of taste than a matter of what's actually better.

I see upsides and downsides to both the old and new Psi Storms.

[Perfecttear]

Yes, I'm sure everybody loved the awkward seiging and unseiging of tanks and not the carnage they dealt out. Tanks got a very specialized and fun mechanic at the expense of limited mobility, but this HT delay is providing no such benefit.

I for one love the new delay for storm, it serves it purpose by providing more micro to the game,and makes it more exciting,and i'm shure i'm not the only one, since i knew about it for weeks, and was alredy discusing it with multiple people about it), and almost everybody of them liked the new sc2 psistorm more than the sc1 version. So don't say, nobody likes it, okay

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[Draco]

This looks more like a matter of taste than a matter of what's actually better.

I see upsides and downsides to both the old and new Psi Storms.

I'll reserve judgment until beta, but I feel that there's easily a third option better than both. I'm not going to fling ideas around just yet, though.

I for one love the new delay for storm, it serves it purpose by providing more micro to the game,and makes it more exciting,and i'm shure i'm not the only one, since i knew about it for weeks, and was alredy discusing it with multiple people about it), and almost everybody of them liked the new sc2 psistorm more than the sc1 version. So don't say, nobody likes it, okay

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I just don't see how adding delay adds micro. All the super micro units of SC are the extremely fast, no delay, responsive units.

[Nicol Bolas]

ADDING A DELAY TO THE STORM DOES NOTHING TO THE NICHE IT OCCUPIES.

Except that it does. It makes faster units more able to avoid the damage, as the storming player must predict how they move. Whereas slower units are more susceptible to the damage, as they can be more easily predicted. Terrain even plays a factor, as fast units lose their mobility advantage.

Please stop repeating this tired refrain. It's not true, and I just showed how.

Let's face it i am a typical internet user and gamer, i would say i'm fairly representative of the SC2 sales base. basically blizz has to please people like me or their product will fail. simple as that

Please. Blizzard could literally put Dustin Browder's poop in a box for StarCraft II and it'd still sell millions. And the fact that you are posting on a forum about SC2 proves that you are not a typical gamer, as most gamers do not indulge in such things.

You're saying the problem is that HT was too good of an answer to everything.

No, I said that. There's more than one person in this conversation. Pay attention. And specifically, I said that Psi Storm is a general purpose "kill-them-all" ability, where the only skill involved in its use is being able to quickly select a single HT and clicking the correct spot on the screen. No mind games, no pretending to storm just to push the enemy around. Your ability to storm is only contingent on your ability to select one particular unit and click the desired location.

yeah but what if the units can fly

And? I don't see the problem. Psi Storm will simply not be that useful against fast flying units. Where is it written that Psi Storm must be usable against them?

i'm a poor student on welfare and i would like to check the game out.

Then download the demo. Being poor doesn't give you the right to just take stuff. Game playing isn't like food or water; it's a luxury. If you can't afford it, do without.

well their mutas have forced you to build phoenixes so you're back to square one.

Yes, that would be the point. You built HTs, they built Muta to kill them, you built Phoenixes to stop their Muta, they build Corruptors to stop your Phoenixes, oh but look: Corruptors are not particularly fast, so Psi Storm can take them out.

[Draco]

Except that it does. It makes faster units more able to avoid the damage, as the storming player must predict how they move. Whereas slower units are more susceptible to the damage, as they can be more easily predicted. Terrain even plays a factor, as fast units lose their mobility advantage.

Please stop repeating this tired refrain. It's not true, and I just showed how.

Increased AoE on top of the terrain situation you mentioned negates that "doesn't work on the fasties" idea. The alteration of its niche seems rather watered down to justify anything.

No, I said that. There's more than one person in this conversation. Pay attention.

No, you both said it. I even dug up the quote. Just you have a problem with it while he doesn't.