Unit Pictures

[solidsamurai]

Two, Zerg are biological. Variances between critters are to be expected.

Zerg are eugenically bred to behave optimally. Hence, all zerg in the same strain, within a given brood, are quite similar. Kind of like breeds of dog or horse, or even cat.

Different broods might have different zerglings, ie., zerglings with webbed feet or zerglings with larger talons, I dunno; that's my willing disbelief.

[Shadow Archon]

Sure it can! Just use your imagination (you seem to have a rather 'colorful' one)

And what's with that? I only go off of info they show in the game. Its not me being colorful, its blizzard.

1. Remember that magic sentient crystal that Stetman was studying, the one that was creating energy out of nothing & boosting the Hyperion's redundant systems & augmenting the ships main power with it? I can think of several possibilities off the top of my head.

Your suggesting a sliver of Protoss crystal is superior to the larger crystal cores within their own ships.

2. EMP's..that is all

Nope. Protoss hulls can take teratons. Terrans aren't anywhere near that level except with nukes, Yamatos, and so forth.

The fact is the ship should die from a single Protoss beam. It doesn't therefore the whole level is laughable. A protoss fleet could wipe the entire Dominion going off of their capabilities.

3. The same logic that allows Ghosts like Nova or Kerrigan to be psionically more powerful than your average Protoss, even though the lore specifically indicates this shouldn't be possible.

What are your talking about? Psionics has nothing to do with set technological limits.

4. It isn't actually the Hyperion which destroys the Purifier, rather it's the rather sizable number of vikings with their long range anti-capital ship torpedoes which ultimately does it in after it's primary support mechanisms (3 nexii) were taken offline leaving it highly vulnerable. Modern history (as well as background lore & gameplay) all indicate that generally speaking, large numbers of appropriately equipped fighter craft are far more effective at sinking large warships than other warships.

One, using modern history when talking about the science fiction battleground is utterly useless because space/air combat works differently than naval combat.

Two, show me in another source Terran fighters taking down groups of Protoss capital ships.

Three, a Protoss fleet engaged a Terran fleet in Frontline, and the Protoss won there. The Supercarrier Gantrithor handled an entire Terran Battlecruiser squardon, each with their own fighters in the background of Starcraft 1. Twilight even suggests that a single shot is all it takes to down one Battlecruiser. Why would they lose at Free Haven other than plot fiat?

Vikings don't have the frepower to do so outside of the game. We have seen their capabilities in stories such as Frontline and from its displayed actions, those missiles should be utterly useless against Protoss hulls going by Twilight and so on.

Anyways, I would suspect a purification's fleet's amount of fighters to easily handle a single diddly Battlecruisers squadron of fighters.

5. The same logic that allowed Earth to defeat the aliens in 'Independence Day' (from which that level quite obviously drew it's inspiration.

Protoss Motherships however have not shown to have a massive weak spot when firing their purifier. There is no opening to an inner core and the gun just charges and fires.

6. Or that allows 12 or so hydralisks to be able to down a battlecruiser, despite everything we know about the range & penetrating power of their spines indicating this to be quite ludicrous

One, that was after it had went through a Psionic storm which downed another battlecrusier. The ship was crippled.

Two, Zerg hydralisks can actually fire hundreds of spines in a single volley and they can be coated with acid to the point of melting down large amounts of metal into a puddle in seconds. Your little tirade is a bit pointless when their normal spines are already like that. They are hypersonic (spectre), have magic acid (starcraft 1, shadow hunters), and can fire the damn things by the hundreds (revelations).

7. Or the same logic that allows banshee's to be able to maneuver in space despite the lore (as well as their design) specifically indicating them to be purely planetary craft confined soley to aerobic environments...

Uh, no. One, Space platforms have atmospheres, and two, they have thrusters for space travel. They do move faster than sound from their thrusters in the Card to play cinematic.

IIRC, many of them were in fact, fighting with pitchforks. You could try to prove me wrong, but that would involve once again subjecting yourself to the atrocity that is SoXN. Are you really willing to go that far?

Yes I am.

Kiernan and Kirsten Warner—he a young stonemason, she a teacher and amateur engineer—fought
side by side with the granite-chopping implements Kiernan used in his work. He swung the long tool from
one side to the other, hacking sharp limbs off the creatures, splitting their thick leathery hides, and leaving
a pile of twitching, mindless alien bodies around him. Kirsten fought just as hard, as if trying to keep up
with the number of victims Kiernan scattered on the ground.

Nope. It wasn't pitchforks.

The soldier who got eaten specifically referred to it as a hydralisk, beyond that..

Which one?

Page 189 doesn't mention the species and we only see its head.

Page 137? That's the one?

Well, again. Zerg vary wildly in size all the time. Mutalisks in this comic, in Speed of Darkness, and in SC2 for instance. Zerglings vary from dog sized to bigger than marines. Zerg can vary. Technological superiority in where one Protoss ship can easily down an entire Terran squadron and moving on to where one Terran ship can down an entire Protoss Purrification fleet to the point of failure is to wide or variances.

Of course I know the true answer is the technology work directly off of plot and will do whatever the writer wants, its just its the first time they didn't leave any plausible explanation. To me, that is completely impossible for Raynor to do, regardless of what else. I can believe the Media Blitz raid or the interactions with the Tal'Darim (you only face larger ships when the dominion is behind you), but that was something that was completely assinine.

.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test

Well, Zerg generally sound the same, look different despite being the same on occasion, and act the same so that's not the best course of action.

Zerg are eugenically bred to behave optimally. Hence, all zerg in the same strain, within a given brood, are quite similar. Kind of like breeds of dog or horse, or even cat.

Sure.

Different broods might have different zerglings, ie., zerglings with webbed feet or zerglings with larger talons, I dunno; that's my willing disbelief.

Here's the thing. It varies much more than that between broods. Hence human sized zerglings here and dog sized here and so on.

[phazonjunkie]

Your suggesting a sliver of Protoss crystal is superior to the larger crystal cores within their own ships.

Maybe it wasn't just an ordinary crystal?

Nope. Protoss hulls can take teratons. Terrans aren't anywhere near that level except with nukes, Yamatos, and so forth.

Where the hell you keep getting that figure from anyway?

Anyway, even if that figure was legitimate, it in and of itself doesn't neccessarily tell you much, if anything. You'd have to consider variables like what form the energy takes (thermal, kinetic, etc.) In what manner it's deployed (focused, pervasive, etc.) And even regardless of all this the fact remains that regardless of what Protoss shields are made of or what there overall damage rating is, they will fall to sustained, concentrated firepower; (it's even stated in 'Frontline' that that's actually the best way to deal with them) which is precisely how you destroy the Purifier in that mission.

The fact is the ship should die from a single Protoss beam. It doesn't therefore the whole level is laughable. A protoss fleet could wipe the entire Dominion going off of their capabilities.

And why do you believe the capabilities of the Gantrithor in anyway translates to the rest of the Protoss fleet? It's called a 'Supercarrier' for a reason. It was one of a class of super advanced, top-of-the-line warships that were produced in very limited quantity. Of course it would have offensive and and defensive capabilities that would exceed most other protoss ships.

And also isn't implicitly state exactly what kind of Carrier Selendis commands or if it was even in the same class as the Gantrithor.

And it's also unknown the exact defensive capabilities of a purifier (lorewise). But we DO know they were designed primarily for strategic 'purification', not tactical ship to ship combat.

What are your talking about? Psionics has nothing to do with set technological limits.

In this context, the same logic (or lack thereof) can be applied to both.

One, using modern history when talking about the science fiction battleground is utterly useless because space/air combat works differently than naval combat.

"Traditionally, most space battles had taken place between capital ships and smaller gunships. However, Tarsonian technicians found that small, dynamic high-speed fighters could repeatedly deal damage to large ships while evading most defensive battery attacks. "

-taken from original manual

Three, a Protoss fleet engaged a Terran fleet in Frontline, and the Protoss won there.

Barely

The Supercarrier Gantrithor handled an entire Terran Battlecruiser squardon, each with their own fighters in the background of Starcraft 1. Twilight even suggests that a single shot is all it takes to down one Battlecruiser. Why would they lose at Free Haven other than plot fiat?

Again, why are you Equating the capabilities of the Gantrithor with the rest of the Protoss fleet?

One, that was after it had went through a Psionic storm which downed another battlecrusier. The ship was crippled.

Fair enough

Two, Zerg hydralisks can actually fire hundreds of spines in a single volley and they can be coated with acid to the point of melting down large amounts of metal into a puddle in seconds. Your little tirade is a bit pointless when their normal spines are already like that. They are hypersonic (spectre), have magic acid (starcraft 1, shadow hunters), and can fire the damn things by the hundreds (revelations).

Uh, no, we see the capabilities of their spines in the 'Card to Play' cinematic. If they were anywhere NEAR that strong, there wouldn't have been anything left of General Warfield, let alone his arm.

Uh, no. One, Space platforms have atmospheres, and two, they have thrusters for space travel. They do move faster than sound from their thrusters in the Card to play cinematic.

I didn't see any thrusters did you? I saw three rotary-style engines, 2 lateral and 1 on the tail (presumably for stability). You could make the argument that they can transform into ACS thrusters for space flight, but even that goes against the 'original' lore specs.

Yes I am.




Nope. It wasn't pitchforks.

.... You...actually did it? I wouldn't have gone near that abomination with a ten foot pole. Alright I concede that point.

Well, again. Zerg vary wildly in size all the time. Mutalisks in this comic, in Speed of Darkness, and in SC2 for instance. Zerglings vary from dog sized to bigger than marines. Zerg can vary. Technological superiority in where one Protoss ship can easily down an entire Terran squadron and moving on to where one Terran ship can down an entire Protoss Purrification fleet to the point of failure is to wide or variances.

The target was the Purifier itself, not the entire Protoss fleet (which obviously wouldn't have been possible), once it's destroyed, Selendis simply orders the fleet to leave, seeing no further reason to continue the fight.

Of course I know the true answer is the technology work directly off of plot and will do whatever the writer wants, its just its the first time they didn't leave any plausible explanation. To me, that is completely impossible for Raynor to do, regardless of what else. I can believe the Media Blitz raid or the interactions with the Tal'Darim (you only face larger ships when the dominion is behind you), but that was something that was completely assinine.

For the record, I'm well aware of the implausibilty of the whole scenario. I simply find it amusing that given the vast inconsistencies and contradictions that already exist in the SC EU, it's something like this that breaks your suspension of disbelief. It's like someone who'd happily be willing to eat a steaming horseshit sandwich on sourdough, yet sickened by the thought of a cold cowshit sandwich on rye.

[Shadow Archon]

Maybe it wasn't just an ordinary crystal?

This isn't hinted at and is crappy reasoning. If the crystal was special, why would that affect anything to do with the armor's set durability or the weapons batteries that aren't used to firing such high powered shots?

Where the hell you keep getting that figure from anyway?

Most of the links should be here.

Or for the High end here.

Jake closed her glowing eyes and hung on desperately with her four-fingered hands. It was something she never expected--an attack by her own people ....... or by beings from another race who had commandeered Protoss vessels. She didn't know which; none of the ships had responded to hails. They had only come out of nowhere, encircled the carrier, and with no explanation, opened fire.

The Xa'lor lurched an shuddered, evidence of the severity of the attack it was trying to withstand. Despite everything the skilled pilots could do, the valuable passenger was thrown to the metal plating of the ship. before she could reach up to grasp the railing and pull herself to her feet, hands were there to assist here. She accepted the help with no arrogance, merely as something that was her due. She was a preserver, and she more than anyone or anything else on this ship had to be protected at all costs. Jake felt blood trickle from a cut on her head, right below the jeweled band that held back her nerve cords. She felt the concern of the crew wash over her in a warm wave, tinged with their own fears and the cold set of their determination.

Executor Amur's mind brushed Jake's. "Zamara, I can only think that this inexplicable attack has something to do with the knowledge you harbor."
Jake nodded, grieved but stoic; she agreed. It was the only possible explanation."We are outnumbered by our own ships," he continued. "I doubt there will be an escape for us. But you must survive. What you carry must endure. You know where the escape pods are; go there."

Jake felt the deep pin of sympathy wash through her as the words entered her mind. But she also knew that the executor was right. She, the individual named Zamara, was no more important than any other protoss aboard this vessel, but what she carried could not be permitted to die with her. It was ancient, it was secret, and it had to survive. It would be noble to die with her companions on this ship. It would be a good death--but she did not have that luxury. She would have to live.....live long enough at the very least to transfer her precious burden to another. She had fled from similar encounters before; at least, she remembered doing so.

Jake sent back an affirmative, laced with subtle nuances of care, concern, and grief. Then she fully realized what he had said.
"Escape pods? Surely I would be safer in a shuttle."
"The shuttles are much more heavily armored, that is true, but they are also larger and will attract more notice."

"Yes.........I understand. En taro Tassadar, Amur."
The executor returned the blessing and war cry in one, then she felt his attentions shift. It would soon be time.


Jake hastened down the corridor, her gossamer fine lavender and white robes that marked her revered status as preserver billowing around her She had no armor, no weapons; she was not expected to defend herself. There was now and always had been a line a hundred deep of those who would die for what she carried. And soon, those aboard the Xa'lor would die. But she would be alone.


I must stay alive! she thought fiercely as she reached the escape pod and eased herself into it, Her long fingers moved over the controls quickly and calmly, the absolute necessity of her survival overriding her instinctive urge to panic.
Soon now.......be ready, Amur thought to her.


There was more, but it was not in words, but in images. Jake sensed the activity throughout the vessel. In other bays, the fighters would be soaring into space like golden, glowing insects, darting about quickly and powerfully. The Xa'lor itself, of course, was massively armored, but Jake had had no illusions that a single carrier would be the victor.

Jake knew what the executor was going to do, knew that the timing of the desperate attempt was crucial. She let her gaze go soft, the better to focus her powerful brain, to open her thoughts. Amur was going to let the attackers destroy them, and Jake was to depart mere seconds before the ship exploded. There would be scattered debris littering the are, and the enemy--fellow protoss, the enemy? The thought was agony--- would have their hands full for a few precious moments attempting to locate her.


In those few seconds, with luck, Jake could make good her escape.

She waited for the instant when she would depart, and it came.
Now!

Jake thought with a stab of pain that Amur's thoughts had never been so focused, so pure, in all the time she had known him.
With clarity and calmness that would have surprised her had she not been so secure in the serene confidence that what she was doing was necessary, Jake hit the controls. The little pod was propelled into space.

The pod, small but as beautiful and graceful and golden as any other protoss vessel----the Khalai were proud of their handiwork and made everything aesthetically pleasing as well as highly functional-- began moving swiftly froward. It had company; to cause further distraction, all of the escape pods had been launched.
.
A few seconds later, Jake's mind cried out and her hands flew to cover her glowing eyes as she felt the deaths of her crew mates, her colleagues, her friends. Their pain made her dizzy and ill. So many lifetimes of memories bombarding her was almost too much to handle. She summoned her will and with an effort got her thoughts under control. She chose not to look at the devastation behind her. She did not need to see it to know.......Jake closed her glowing eyes and hung on desperately with her four-fingered hands. It was something she never expected--an attack by her own people ....... or by beings from another race who had commandeered Protoss vessels. She didn't know which; none of the ships had responded to hails. They had only come out of nowhere, encircled the carrier, and with no explanation, opened fire.

The Xa'lor lurched an shuddered, evidence of the severity of the attack it was trying to withstand. Despite everything the skilled pilots could do, the valuable passenger was thrown to the metal plating of the ship. before she could reach up to grasp the railing and pull herself to her feet, hands were there to assist here. She accepted the help with no arrogance, merely as something that was her due. She was a preserver, and she more than anyone or anything else on this ship had to be protected at all costs. Jake felt blood trickle from a cut on her head, right below the jeweled band that held back her nerve cords. She felt the concern of the crew wash over her in a warm wave, tinged with their own fears and the cold set of their determination.

Executor Amur's mind brushed Jake's. "Zamara, I can only think that this inexplicable attack has something to do with the knowledge you harbor."
Jake nodded, grieved but stoic; she agreed. It was the only possible explanation."We are outnumbered by our own ships," he continued. "I doubt there will be an escape for us. But you must survive. What you carry must endure. You know where the escape pods are; go there."

Jake felt the deep pin of sympathy wash through her as the words entered her mind. But she also knew that the executor was right. She, the individual named Zamara, was no more important than any other protoss aboard this vessel, but what she carried could not be permitted to die with her. It was ancient, it was secret, and it had to survive. It would be noble to die with her companions on this ship. It would be a good death--but she did not have that luxury. She would have to live.....live long enough at the very least to transfer her precious burden to another. She had fled from similar encounters before; at least, she remembered doing so.

Jake sent back an affirmative, laced with subtle nuances of care, concern, and grief. Then she fully realized what he had said.
"Escape pods? Surely I would be safer in a shuttle."
"The shuttles are much more heavily armored, that is true, but they are also larger and will attract more notice."

"Yes.........I understand. En taro Tassadar, Amur."
The executor returned the blessing and war cry in one, then she felt his attentions shift. It would soon be time.


Jake hastened down the corridor, her gossamer fine lavender and white robes that marked her revered status as preserver billowing around her She had no armor, no weapons; she was not expected to defend herself. There was now and always had been a line a hundred deep of those who would die for what she carried. And soon, those aboard the Xa'lor would die. But she would be alone.


I must stay alive! she thought fiercely as she reached the escape pod and eased herself into it, Her long fingers moved over the controls quickly and calmly, the absolute necessity of her survival overriding her instinctive urge to panic.
Soon now.......be ready, Amur thought to her.


There was more, but it was not in words, but in images. Jake sensed the activity throughout the vessel. In other bays, the fighters would be soaring into space like golden, glowing insects, darting about quickly and powerfully. The Xa'lor itself, of course, was massively armored, but Jake had had no illusions that a single carrier would be the victor.

Jake knew what the executor was going to do, knew that the timing of the desperate attempt was crucial. She let her gaze go soft, the better to focus her powerful brain, to open her thoughts. Amur was going to let the attackers destroy them, and Jake was to depart mere seconds before the ship exploded. There would be scattered debris littering the are, and the enemy--fellow protoss, the enemy? The thought was agony--- would have their hands full for a few precious moments attempting to locate her.


In those few seconds, with luck, Jake could make good her escape.

She waited for the instant when she would depart, and it came.
Now!

Jake thought with a stab of pain that Amur's thoughts had never been so focused, so pure, in all the time she had known him.
With clarity and calmness that would have surprised her had she not been so secure in the serene confidence that what she was doing was necessary, Jake hit the controls. The little pod was propelled into space.

The pod, small but as beautiful and graceful and golden as any other protoss vessel----the Khalai were proud of their handiwork and made everything aesthetically pleasing as well as highly functional-- began moving swiftly froward. It had company; to cause further distraction, all of the escape pods had been launched.
.
A few seconds later, Jake's mind cried out and her hands flew to cover her glowing eyes as she felt the deaths of her crew mates, her colleagues, her friends. Their pain made her dizzy and ill. So many lifetimes of memories bombarding her was almost too much to handle. She summoned her will and with an effort got her thoughts under control. She chose not to look at the devastation behind her. She did not need to see it to know.......

A protoss carrier can take several blasts from other Protoss weapons.

Anyway, even if that figure was legitimate, it in and of itself doesn't neccessarily tell you much, if anything. You'd have to consider variables like what form the energy takes (thermal, kinetic, etc.) In what manner it's deployed (focused, pervasive, etc.) And even regardless of all this the fact remains that regardless of what Protoss shields are made of or what there overall damage rating is, they will fall to sustained, concentrated firepower;

You don't understand how shields and armor work do you?

If it can take teratons of energy and still stand, piddiliy little sub-kilotons or megatons can only take it down after days of sustained bombardment. That's never going to happen.

(it's even stated in 'Frontline' that that's actually the best way to deal with them) which is precisely how you destroy the Purifier in that mission.

We don't see Protoss vessels get destroyed against the Terrans in Frontline nor do we actually see the battle against the purifier since game mechanics.

And why do you believe the capabilities of the Gantrithor in anyway translates to the rest of the Protoss fleet?

Because any Protoss purification fleet has super carriers and that's what Raynor's dealing with.

It's called a 'Supercarrier' for a reason. It was one of a class of super advanced, top-of-the-line warships that were produced in very limited quantity.

There's dozens of the things and they are used in every purification operation, like on Free Haven. Not to mention the dozens of other ships of unknown class also dealing out teratons/gigatons worth of TNT in the other pictures of orbital bombardment.

Of course it would have offensive and and defensive capabilities that would exceed most other protoss ships.

Not to that degree. They'll be in the same ball park since they use the same tech. Normal carriers have teraton rated shields and we see countless other ships bombarding other planets with similar capabilities.

And also isn't implicitly state exactly what kind of Carrier Selendis commands or if it was even in the same class as the Gantrithor.

Doesn't matter. Every purification fleet to date used super carriers.

And it's also unknown the exact defensive capabilities of a purifier (lorewise). But we DO know they were designed primarily for strategic 'purification', not tactical ship to ship combat.

If a smaller ship with a smaller Khaydarin core can do it, who's to say that a Mothership can't? That's like saying that the most powerful weapon in the fleet has sub-rate shields, just because. Its stupid. They do operate very well in tactical combat due to the fact they fight Leviathans and all of the Zerg airborns held within and win.

In this context, the same logic (or lack thereof) can be applied to both.

No, it can't. Kerrigan and Nova are special psionics and deal with biology, not technology. Technology doesn't suddenly become massively better for no apparent reason over other technology.

"Traditionally, most space battles had taken place between capital ships and smaller gunships. However, Tarsonian technicians found that small, dynamic high-speed fighters could repeatedly deal damage to large ships while evading most defensive battery attacks. "

-taken from original manual

Which applies to Terran ships which don't have the durability of Protoss vessels and is shown to be more of an annoyance in Uprising.

Barely

Did we read the same manga? The Terran's fleet was annihilated and the Protoss fleet's capital ships were still there at the end.

Again, why are you Equating the capabilities of the Gantrithor with the rest of the Protoss fleet?

Because all purification fleets have shown to have super carriers not to mention the dozens of other ships with similar capabilities.

Uh, no, we see the capabilities of their spines in the 'Card to Play' cinematic. If they were anywhere NEAR that strong, there wouldn't have been anything left of General Warfield, let alone his arm.

A group of snakelike aliens lurched forward and showered the bunker with hundreds of deadly razor-spines. Many of the spines rained in through multiple gunports, and Madrid felt the body of a marine drop next to him. With a defiant roar, a marine equipped with Firebat combat armor opened up with his twin flamethrowers. Concentrated napalm enveloped the frenzied creatures, and dozens of them fell to the ground in burning heaps.
-------------------------------------
The Protoss’s eyes scanned the room and came to rest upon the crumpled body of his comrade. The creature flexed its huge shoulders, and a hundred needles shot out at the warrior. The Protoss whirled at the sound of the expulsion and was showed by the tiny blades that tore his flesh and embedded themselves in his worn armor.

A bubbling, liquid sound came from the door and a harsh, acrid odor assaulted her nostrils. Coughing violently and holding the psi-screen net in her hands, Howard turned. The door was melting into a steaming puddle, the acid that had dissolved it now starting to eat through the floor. Framed in the hole that was now the doorway to the operating room were creatures straight out of nightmares.

Zerg.

Her team stood frozen in place. The zerg, strangely enough, also did not advance. There were three of them that she could see, standing almost motionless. Two of them were smallish; she‟d heard the term “doglike” used in training to describe zerglings, but now that she beheld them, they were nothing so pleasant. They waited, incisors clicking, red human blood shiny on their carapaces. Above them, its sinuous neck undulating slightly, towered something that looked like a deranged cross between a cobra and an insect. Scythelike arms, glinting in the antiseptic light of the operating room, waited, presumably for the order to slice off heads.
----------------------------
Ethan would have kept that sort of thing carefully locked up in his head. Which, sadly, had likely been ripped from his shoulders or dissolved in acid. No one had been left alive, either in the compound or in the ships in orbit above the planet.

The Marines and Firebats continued to dish out destruction in self-defense, but then one of the robed Protoss Templars climbed onto a pile of rocks. Raising his three-fingered hands to the sky, he summoned an awesome Psionic Storm that battered the Wraiths into confusion, slamming the single-man fighters together, driving several down to the ground as if they had been hit by a huge invisible flyswatter.

Massively damaged, the Battlecruisers and the remaining Wraiths tried to pull away, but from the other
side of the valley, a second High Templar called yet another Psionic Storm that hammered them from the
east.

Only one of the Battlecruisers and three Wraiths managed to pull away to the relative safety of the
foothills, limping back from the dangerous valley and leaving damaged and destroyed Terran vessels
strewn all across the battlefield.

While the Alpha Squadron battleships hovered and tried to assess their damage, a dozen Hydralisks
burrowed up from beneath the ground. Before the Battlecruiser captain and the Wraith pilots could
ascend out of range, the Hydralisks had lashed out with wave after wave of penetrating needle spines that
pierced the Battlecruiser's hull and shredded its engines. The enormous ship crashed down into the
rugged foothills, while the three Wraiths were turned into a confetti of metal and blood before they could
even fire a shot.

Done by Hydralisks. We know they have different spines for different jobs so showing one doesn't necessarily count out the other.

I didn't see any thrusters did you? I saw three rotary-style engines, 2 lateral and 1 on the tail (presumably for stability). You could make the argument that they can transform into ACS thrusters for space flight, but even that goes against the 'original' lore specs.

The thrusters are right behind the rotary blades in the cinematic.

Anyways:

For any terran or protoss unit, the answer is even simpler: it’s outfitted with standard propulsion equipment only for use when traveling in space.

.... You...actually did it? I wouldn't have gone near that abomination with a ten foot pole. Alright I concede that point.

I have quoted it once before, and I shall do so again. (crappy Warcraft 3 reference)

The target was the Purifier itself, not the entire Protoss fleet (which obviously wouldn't have been possible), once it's destroyed, Selendis simply orders the fleet to leave, seeing no further reason to continue the fight.

Which is also stupid. An entire Purification fleet can turn a planet into a molten ball in minutes. They could have easily killed them all and Raynor wouldn't be able to stop them.

They don't need the Purifier at all to accomplish their goals. The level's crap, the reasoning behind it is crap, the Protoss reactions are crap, and the Mothership and several Carriers being defeated by one Terran ship is also crap.

For the record, I'm well aware of the implausibilty of the whole scenario. I simply find it amusing that given the vast inconsistencies and contradictions that already exist in the SC EU, it's something like this that breaks your suspension of disbelief. It's like someone who'd happily be willing to eat a steaming horseshit sandwich on sourdough, yet sickened by the thought of a cold cowshit sandwich on rye.

That's simply due to opinions and outlook. SC2 was good for me. That mission was the crap one.

[Robear]

Regardless of our own opinions, Blizzard had already put an end to your Banshee propulsion argument in their 2nd Creative Development Q/A:

Question: How do units like the banshee fly in space if there is no air?

For any terran or protoss unit: it’s outfitted with standard propulsion equipment only for use when traveling in space.

(...pretend I'm not here...)

(...I wasn't planning on posting again 'til I have the drawings all done, and I'm still cleaning some up... I also have an apology drawing for being so busy with real life... Shhh...)

(sorry if you're disappointed by seeing this post without a big update)



(there will be a nicer drawing than that, too)

[Turalyon]

Whoah! These posts by Shadow and phazon are almost becoming the length of whole pages. Heh, and to think I was once accused for abusing my keyboard too much...

sorry if you're disappointed by seeing this post without a big update

Not at all. Good to hear you're still at it.

[solidsamurai]

One, using modern history when talking about the science fiction battleground is utterly useless because space/air combat works differently than naval combat.

Two, show me in another source Terran fighters taking down groups of Protoss capital ships.

Three, a Protoss fleet engaged a Terran fleet in Frontline, and the Protoss won there. The Supercarrier Gantrithor handled an entire Terran Battlecruiser squardon, each with their own fighters in the background of Starcraft 1. Twilight even suggests that a single shot is all it takes to down one Battlecruiser. Why would they lose at Free Haven other than plot fiat?

Vikings don't have the frepower to do so outside of the game. We have seen their capabilities in stories such as Frontline and from its displayed actions, those missiles should be utterly useless against Protoss hulls going by Twilight and so on.

Anyways, I would suspect a purification's fleet's amount of fighters to easily handle a single diddly Battlecruisers squadron of fighters.

One thing I enjoyed about starcraft was that the gameplay showed that technology isn't the end all. Tactics are the end all! Technology merely supplements tactics.

If you have a vessel that can ground itself and then go airborne, that merely opens up a new tactical option. So what if it can shoot rockets, those things have existed for centuries.

So I'm willing to suspend my belief enough to consider that superior numbers against any warship will win out. Hence why battlecruisers have CIWS and wraiths - and also hence why lanzer torpedos (??? viking weapon whatever), can shoot long range so that they're only vulnerable to battlecruiser longer range ATA lasers.

Protoss motherships are powerful, but all evidence (besides fucking manga; never referance that again) points to their plasma shields behaving rather like ablative armor. The only superiority is that they're mostly massless, so they can be of any thickness (more hp) - only it takes more energy to sustain them (probably; bigger units have more shields, hence can haul bigger engines, hence... yeah, it's a good rule of thumb, they have more shield hp because they're bigger and probes are among the weakest units in the game because they're small and have puny engines and energy-efficient short-range proton beams, which is considered energy efficient to protoss tech blahblah) - and can regenerate, unlike ablative armor.

Terrans also have ablative armor on their tougher units such as tanks, hence sustain multiple hits and then eventually dropping as the armor tears away. Though maybe even marines have ablative armor. Again, ablative armor is accorded to mass, rather than engine power - although it takes more engine power to move them (terran engines can't both move the unit and regenerate shields, so presumably protoss have much better engines; auxiliary power cores are presumably similar, since both races have similar energy bars). Armor is lower tech, but almost nearly as effective, as it suits terran tactics. Protoss also have armor, but I'm guessing it's mostly the same as terran tech - unless it's the flexible, impact resistant kind that cybernetically sustains the target (maybe more believable, if you want to maintain the high tech fluff; zealots being essentially cyborgs and completely dependenton their power suits, ie. That in addition to the dragoons and immortals, which need these things to live through peacetime to begin with - essentially the dreadnoughts of 40k).

[Shadow Archon]

One thing I enjoyed about starcraft was that the gameplay showed that technology isn't the end all. Tactics are the end all! Technology merely supplements tactics.

Technology when it is OoMs beyond other technology is the end all. Tactics are good for gameplay, but when the enemy side can take you pummeling on them for days and they can one shot you, tactics are useless.

Protoss motherships are powerful, but all evidence (besides fucking manga; never referance that again)

One, its canon, deal with it. You can't ignore canon you don't like when discussing it.

Two, its not from the manga. Its from a short story, a book, and the combined lore.

points to their plasma shields behaving rather like ablative armor.

And it takes teratons to burn it all away with repeated blasts. As such, Terran weapons shouldn't leave a scratch because they don't have enough firepower to reasonably do damage.

If a wall can survive a nuke, Nerf guns aren't going to be able to take it down in a reasonable amount of time or effort.

The only superiority is that they're mostly massless, so they can be of any thickness (more hp) - only it takes more energy to sustain them (probably; bigger units have more shields, hence can haul bigger engines, hence... yeah, it's a good rule of thumb, they have more shield hp because they're bigger and probes are among the weakest units in the game because they're small and have puny engines and energy-efficient short-range proton beams, which is considered energy efficient to protoss tech blahblah) - and can regenerate, unlike ablative armor.

And capital ships can take Protoss weapons which amount in the Teratons. Vikings can not reach that firepower given what they have shown.

Protoss also have armor, but I'm guessing it's mostly the same as terran tech - unless it's the flexible, impact resistant kind that cybernetically sustains the target (maybe more believable, if you want to maintain the high tech fluff; zealots being essentially cyborgs and completely dependenton their power suits, ie. That in addition to the dragoons and immortals, which need these things to live through peacetime to begin with - essentially the dreadnoughts of 40k).

Protoss armor is magic. Capital ship armor takes teraton DEWs and survives. No real life material can do that. Its not just the shields that are like this.

[phazonjunkie]

This isn't hinted at and is crappy reasoning. If the crystal was special, why would that affect anything to do with the armor's set durability or the weapons batteries that aren't used to firing such high powered shots?

It's magic.

You don't understand how shields and armor work do you?

Neither do you. Or anyone. You can only speculate, which in a universe like starcraft is aruably pointless. This isn't hard (or even soft) science fiction, it's science fantasy

Most of the links should be here.

Or for the High end here.



A protoss carrier can take several blasts from other Protoss weapons.



If it can take teratons of energy and still stand, piddiliy little sub-kilotons or megatons can only take it down after days of sustained bombardment. That's never going to happen.

I've glanced over the link(s) provided. And while I applaud your efforts in trying to quantify various power outputs & whatnot, you do realize that the manga/comic panels from which you base your calculations are based soley on artistic license and adhere strictly to the 'Laws of Anime' & 'rule of cool' right? What's more, trying to attach hard (or even soft figures) for power levels and strict technological limitations in a universe where they've already been shown to be as fluid as anything else and vary according to the dictates of the plot & whims of the writer (which you yourself even admit) is ultimately self-defeating; especially when you try to create hard & fast rules based on said calculations AND cry foul when they are broken.

We don't see Protoss vessels get destroyed against the Terrans in Frontline nor do we actually see the battle against the purifier since game mechanics.

We also don't see the myriad of Zerg surrounding and defending the Overmind before the Gantrithor rams into it, but they're there apparently...

Because any Protoss purification fleet has super carriers and that's what Raynor's dealing with.



There's dozens of the things and they are used in every purification operation, like on Free Haven. Not to mention the dozens of other ships of unknown class also dealing out teratons/gigatons worth of TNT in the other pictures of orbital bombardment.



Not to that degree. They'll be in the same ball park since they use the same tech. Normal carriers have teraton rated shields and we see countless other ships bombarding other planets with similar capabilities.



Doesn't matter. Every purification fleet to date used super carriers.

Proof that they were Supercarriers? From what I understand, ALL protoss carriers come equipped with purification beams. But like I said, they're used primarily for strategic orbital bombardment not tactical space combat. I'd Imagine they'd require proper positioning and would take a considerable amount of time to charge up.

The simple fact that Tassadar & the Gantrithor received special mention as besting an entire Battlecruiser group suggest it as being an exception rather than the rule & speaks more of the capabilities of the Gantrithor or Tassadar as a military genius (or both) rather than the capabilities of protoss warships in general.

If a smaller ship with a smaller Khaydarin core can do it, who's to say that a Mothership can't? That's like saying that the most powerful weapon in the fleet has sub-rate shields, just because. Its stupid. They do operate very well in tactical combat due to the fact they fight Leviathans and all of the Zerg airborns held within and win.

It wasn't a mothership, it was a purifier

No, it can't. Kerrigan and Nova are special psionics and deal with biology, not technology. Technology doesn't suddenly become massively better for no apparent reason over other technology.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...rarySkepticism

Which applies to Terran ships which don't have the durability of Protoss vessels and is shown to be more of an annoyance in Uprising.

And is shown to be absolutely devastationg in the 'corronation' cinematic, your point?

Because all purification fleets have shown to have super carriers not to mention the dozens of other ships with similar capabilities.

Again, proof that they were indeed supercarriers.

Done by Hydralisks. We know they have different spines for different jobs so showing one doesn't necessarily count out the other.

And yet your unwilling to apply that same logic to technological levels.

Which is also stupid. An entire Purification fleet can turn a planet into a molten ball in minutes. They could have easily killed them all and Raynor wouldn't be able to stop them.

They don't need the Purifier at all to accomplish their goals. The level's crap, the reasoning behind it is crap, the Protoss reactions are crap, and the Mothership and several Carriers being defeated by one Terran ship is also crap.

Presumably, you can accept a two bit Terran merc & his band using a magic rock to steal an entire zerg brood from right under the Overmind's nose in one instance(CANON), and creating a device capable of temporarily disrupting the shielding of an entire word in another,(also canon) then the 'New Haven' level is unremarkable

That's simply due to opinions and outlook. SC2 was good for me. That mission was the crap one.

Once again, I'm not saying your distaste for that mission was groundless or unwarranted, I'm merely stating that in light of other inconsistencies we've scene, it's a purely arbitrary one.

Whoah! These posts by Shadow and phazon are almost becoming the length of whole pages. Heh, and to think I was once accused for abusing my keyboard too much...

[Shadow Archon]

It's magic.

Its not stated, therefore, no, I won't think that.

Neither do you. Or anyone. You can only speculate, which in a universe like starcraft is aruably pointless. This isn't hard (or even soft) science fiction, it's science fantasy

And? I can go off what they show. If they stray from that I call fowl.

I've glanced over the link(s) provided. And while I applaud your efforts in trying to quantify various power outputs & whatnot, you do realize that the manga/comic panels from which you base your calculations are based soley on artistic license and adhere strictly to the 'Laws of Anime' & 'rule of cool' right?

If you throw out what is shown because of artistic license there's no point in anything shown in a cinematic, which takes away from discussion.

Despite that, what is shown fits with the book's interpretations, so its backed up there.

What's more, trying to attach hard (or even soft figures) for power levels and strict technological limitations in a universe where they've already been shown to be as fluid as anything else and vary according to the dictates of the plot & whims of the writer (which you yourself even admit) is ultimately self-defeating; especially when you try to create hard & fast rules based on said calculations AND cry fowl when they are broken.

I cry fowl when they are broken EXTREMELY. I have no problem with bending it (Dominion fleet beating small Protoss forces), but when they take it to free haven, I do call fowl.

We also don't see the myriad of Zerg surrounding and defending the Overmind before the Gantrithor rams into it, but they're there apparently...

TASSADAR
Executor, the Overmind has been weakened, but I fear we have sustained severe damage ourselves. I will steer the Gantrithor into a collision course with the Overmind. If I can channel enough of the Dark Templars' energy through the hull of the Gantrithor, I should be able to bring swift death to the accursed abomination. Remember us, Executor. Remember what was done here today. May Adun watch over you.

How can severe damage take place otherwise when two armies are invading the Overmind and it has no defenses?

EPILOGUE
As the chaotic, swirling energies subsided, a heavy silence settled over the battlefields of Aiur. Due to Tassadar's noble sacrifice, the Overmind was now dead and the Zerg Swarms were scattered and broken. But as the heroes surveyed their once glorious homeland, they realized that their victory had cost them all but their lives. Aiur was left nothing more than a smoldering ruin. Those few Protoss who survived the final battle could only wonder what the future would hold for their race.
And far away, on the distant planet Char, Kerrigan, the self-styled Queen of Blades, knew that the time of her ascension was at hand.

Its described as a battle anyways, and most of it took place around the Overmind. We don't see them except for game mechanics but they are there and they did damage the Gantrithor due to the fact it has no shields.

Proof that they were Supercarriers? From what I understand, ALL protoss carriers come equipped with purification beams. But like I said, they're used primarily for strategic orbital bombardment not tactical space combat. I'd Imagine they'd require proper positioning and would take a considerable amount of time to charge up.

Nope.

Carrier
Role: Battle Cruiser/Command Ship
Armament: Manufactures Interceptors
The massive Carriers serve as command centres for
the leaders of the Protoss fleets. Heavily armoured and
shielded, Carriers can punch their way through enemy
blockades by unleashing flights of robotic Interceptors
at vital enemy targets. Although the Carriers have no
weapon batteries or armaments of any kind, their
deployment of Interceptor flights makes them devastating
in ship to ship battle.

Any Carrier with a purification beam is automatically a Super Carrier.

And no, they aren't charge 'em up weapons that take time to line up sights. They fire their shots in seconds and can spread their blasts over entire continents in volleys. The same weapon is used in Queen of Blades to take out Terran vessels.

The light struck one of his
ships and enveloped it, creating a glow that was visible
even amid the sun’s rays. The ship was clearly lit, a
nimbus playing about it, and then that aura collapsed
inward and the ship crumpled like a paper ball. When
the light faded the ship was gone, not even a trace left
behind.
“What?” Raynor gaped at the empty space. One of
his ships had just been destroyed, completely obliterated.
What could do something like that?
But he knew the answer immediately: the protoss.
Scanning the sky, he saw one of their lovely, delicatelooking
ships hovering not far from his little fleet. Now
he remembered Matt’s telling him, just before he came
planetside, that a protoss ship was about to exit warp
in their immediate vicinity. Obviously this was that
ship.
But why had it destroyed one of his vessels?
Again the answer came right away: because of the
zerg. The protoss were fanatical about destroying all
zerg and even all traces of their existence. And now
the zerg were on his ships. So the protoss were going to
destroy them there, and his people along with them.
The beam burst forth a second time, illuminating,
enveloping, and then obliterating another of his ships.
Then it struck once more. Raynor’s comm unit pinged
again just as the third ship ceased to exist, and he
glanced down hurriedly. Then he stared. A new dot
had appeared on his screen, which had shifted from
the local grid to a wider planetary one. The new dot
was right beside one of his ships but was heading
toward Char. A lifepod! Or perhaps one of the other
shuttles! That meant survivors!
His hopes were dashed, however, as the protoss
fired again, this time on the escape vessel. All Raynor
saw with his eyes was the beam itself—as the new dot
vanished from his comm unit.
Other dots appeared, each originating from one of
his ships and heading toward Char’s surface. And each
time the protoss shot it down. One of the shuttles must
have evaded the beam, however, or at least avoided
the full brunt of the weapon—it wobbled on his tiny
screen, clearly damaged but still descending in a long,
loose spiral. Raynor quickly marshaled his troops.

The simple fact that Tassadar & the Gantrithor received special mention as besting an entire Battlecruiser group suggest it as being an exception rather than the rule & speaks more of the capabilities of the Gantrithor or Tassadar as a military genius (or both) rather than the capabilities of protoss warships in general.

Nope.

The protoss knew a great deal about terrans, their weaponry and ships, and what they were capable of. And while the Norad II was a powerful ship by terran standards, it was but a single vessel, and posed no real threat at all. It was a buzzing insect, easily swatted away.

Except Tassadar gave no order to do so. “Executor?” queried the pilot. “Shall I destroy the terran ship?” Jake watched both her friend and the vessel. It was mov ing quickly to intercept. No doubt it would begin
attacking them as soon as it was within range.

“There are no other ships. It comes to its doom,” Tassadar said. Jake felt Tassadar’s respect and sorrow wash over her. “They are…courageous, these humans.” “Sir? They are almost within range.”

And the Gantrithor is a super carrier. All carriers that display weapons are Super Carriers. Nothing suggests the Norad, the Hyperion, or the Gantrithor are special amongst their own class with different weapons and defenses than other vessels.

It wasn't a mothership, it was a purifier

They're the same thing.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...rarySkepticism

Of course its arbitrary. Its science fiction we're dealing with. I can take it just fine if they outright say or show "THIS BREAKS PHYSICAL LAWS HERE!" but not when "Hey, you know those guys that win with less stuff because there more powerful and have advance tech, well NOPE, we're not doing that here! SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF POWERS ACTIVATE!"

Again, to me, its stupid.

And is shown to be absolutely devastationg in the 'corronation' cinematic, your point?

That's Zerg with magic acid. They do that all the time and it burns through Protoss shields easy (hint: acid in no way shape or form should ever affect an energy shield...at all). Completely different.

Sure, if Vikings had magic missiles that don't work on normal principles, I would be fine with it, but no they don't so yes I'm ticked.

Again, proof that they were indeed supercarriers.

Carriers + Weapons = Super Carrier. Unless we want to break canon, which I hate.

And yet your unwilling to apply that same logic to technological levels.

You catch on quick. Set Technology and magic Biology don't work the same. The Zerg basically live on magic so what they do doesn't concern me. When the Terrans start beating the Protoss with the roles reversed in terms of numbers, it does concern me.

Protoss and their tech are not ninjaes. They don't suffer from the Conservation of Ninjutsu.

Presumably, you can accept a two bit Terran merc & his band using a magic rock to steal an entire zerg brood from right under the Overmind's nose in one instance(CANON),

Alan Schezar? One, its beautifully done off screen and therefore has ambiguity protecting it, and it takes place after

Two, this has happened before to larger Swarms (Carpenter) and the Overmind sent a Brood to act against it.

Three, again, magic rock. The macguffin is right there. There is no Macguffin in that level.

and creating a device capable of temporarily disrupting the shielding of an entire word in another,(also canon)

That was with Ulrezaj's help, right? Its just an amplified EMP device anyways, and Terran EMP is already magic (EMP's don't work in space as they are shown to do so in Shadow of the Xel'naga.) , so again, point?

then the 'New Haven' level is unremarkable

Nope. Worse offender in my book. Takes away the Protoss stick and gives it to Raynor for a day. A small force of Terrans vs a large force of Protoss in direct conflict should always end up with the Terrans dying a horrible death. Always.

Once again, I'm not saying your distaste for that mission was groundless or unwarranted, I'm merely stating that in light of other inconsistencies we've scene, it's a purely arbitrary one.

Not really. Its the worst offender in my book out of all of it. If they explained it away with magic bull crap, I would be a bit better. Its not so rage.