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Thread: What goes, what stays?

  1. #1

    Default What goes, what stays?

    As far as the multiplayer component for Heart of the Swarm goes, Blizzard has informed us that they're unlikely to simply add more units, and will likely get rid of some units to make way for new ones. As such, in this post I am going to go through each of the Wings of Liberty units and give them a tag of either - keep, reworked or expendable. Keep means I think they'll likely keep it without changing it too much, reworked means I think they're likely to keep it, but probably will change it quite a bit, and expendable means I could see them getting rid of it.

    To begin with the Protoss.

    Probe - keep

    This is pretty self-explanatory.

    Zealot - keep

    Again, pretty self-explanatory. Iconic tier 1 unit for the Protoss. In general I don't think they'll be messing with tier 1 much, if at all.

    Stalker - keep

    Self-explanatory. It's a very iconic unit at this point, and the Zealot and Stalker perfectly portray the Khalai - Dark Templar converse nature of the Protoss army.

    Sentry - keep

    Most likely will keep the tier 1 Protoss spellcaster. It's iconic, sees lots of use, has good spells that I don't think need changing at all. Perfect.

    Immortal - keep

    Likely to keep the Immortal. Much like the Zealot, it sort of provides the ideal "Khalai" element to the Stalker's dark templar roots. As far as gameplay goes, it's also a good anti-armored unit. There isn't really much they can rework about it I don't think.

    Colossus - keep

    Iconic look, fills a specific role. Not much else I can say about it. I think there are some changes they could make to it, but I don't think they have to.

    Observer - keep

    No reason not to. I guess the Protoss' detector could be more exciting or they could give it an ability or something, but I think it's probably fine the way it is.

    Phase Prism - keep

    Same as the Observer. Fine the way it is. Fills a utility niche, doesn't really need to do more than that. I'm hoping the recent health buff it got will mean we'll see it more in games.

    High Templar - keep

    Incredibly iconic, has good spells. Only change I'd really make is buffing Feedback's range to 10 or 11 instead of 9. Dunno what else they can do with this guy that they haven't already.

    Dark Templar - keep

    Iconic, fills that Dark Templar role. Kind of only useful as cheese, but I think Bisu proved in SC1 that it can be used seriously as well if you find the right strategy. Can't really go without it either way anyway.

    Archon - keep

    Iconic, don't really see how they could get rid of it.

    Phoenix - keep

    The Stargate units I think are probably the easiest to replace, but I think the Phoenix works really well. It's fast, it deals anti-air damage, it has some utility with anti-gravity. (Sort of a reverse Raider/Crypt Fiend from WC3 which is fun.) Can't really see them getting rid of it, and I don't know how they'd change it.

    Void Ray - keep

    Same as the Phoenix, I could see them more easily getting rid of the Void Ray than the Phoenix, and I could more easily see the Void Ray being reworked (maybe to work more like it did originally with the 3 levels of attack). But overall I think the Void Rays good the way it is.

    Carrier - Expendable

    I really don't like the Carrier so that's a factor here for sure. In general I just find the Carrier incredibly dull. The game is full of interesting units like the Roach, the Phoenix, the Ghost, the Infestor and in comparison the Carrier is just so BORING. It's a long-range high HP armored unit that deals lots of damage. There's next to nothing to that. There's nothing they counter, they're too expensive to be used well in conjunction with your army (though I don't think I've ever seen anyone try).

    I'm not saying it specifically needs to be replaced with the Tempest, but I think the Tempest is a lot more interesting for a number of reasons. The Tempest, in my head was always a unit that as far as GROUND units were concerned, it was a cheaper Carrier with shorter range. But when it came to air units, it was much more vulnerable.

    And I think that dichotomy of trying to make your Tempests useful while avoiding air units would be a lot more interesting than the Carrier would be able to provide.

    Now obviously in the world of Vikings this is a problem, a 7 range unit with half it's HP against air is going to get absolutely massacred by Vikings. So I'm not sure how to fix that at all.

    And having said all that, I doubt they'd bring in a re-coloured Carrier with a shield mechanic and be like "Hey look, Heart of the Swarm is DIFFERENT!" more than anything the Tempest is just an example of something that I think is BETTER than the Carrier and gives the game a more interesting dichotomy.

    Mothership - Rework

    I actually don't think the Mothership needs to be reworked that much. The main thing I don't like about the Mothership is recall. Recall is absolutely POINTLESS on a unit as fat and slow as the Mothership. Not that it doesn't have it's uses, but I always thought of the Phase Prism, Warp-Gate combo as sort of a substitute for recall, and I think the Mothership needs something greater and more destructive.

    Otherwise I don't think it needs too, too many changes.

    Overall I have trouble finding units in the Protoss army that they could easily get rid of. Everything is very specific and useful. There isn't much you don't see in games, and there isn't much that could be easily substituted for. So outside of the Carrier I can't think of much they can do with the Protoss.

    I think Chrono Boost is a really dull macro mechanic when it's just stuck on the Nexus the way it is, but I dunno if they want to make changes that large with an expansion.

    The Zerg on the other hand I think are much easier to work with.

    Drone - keep

    Yep

    Zergling - keep

    Yeah

    Queen - keep

    Don't know what they'd change. I think with the Zerg theme of the expansion they could touch up the Queen a little bit somehow, but I dunno how. I think she's probably okay the way she is. I think maybe some upgrade to make her more useful offensively in the late game would be interesting. (Probably a movement speed upgrade)

    Overlord - keep

    Obviously the Overlord needs to be kept, and I don't think there's anything I'd change about it. Transport upgrade's cool, generate creep is cool, everything about this is cool.

    Roach - keep

    I used to really hate the Roach. I thought it was a mismatched mess of a unit. It had a stupid name, I thought it looked dumb. And I didn't like how popular it was.

    Now? It's probably one of my favourite Zerg units, the name is still dumb, but I love the concept. I think they could maybe make a few changes here or there, but overall I really like the Roach.

    Baneling - keep

    Banelings a cool tier 1 unit. I think sapper units fit the Zerg really well, and I think making the Zerg's sapper unit an evolution is a perfect fit. Otherwise I don't really think any change is necessary.

    Overseer - Rework

    Overseer... if they were going to remove it, I'd want them to probably just make Overlords detectors again. I know they said this made Zerg 'detectorific' but I always kind of thought of the movement speed upgrade as kind of a buffer for that, and the overall vulnerability of overlords.

    Having said that, I think they should keep the Overseer, but it needs a spell for combat situations REALLY badly. Corruption and Changeling suit it well, but outside of detecting cloaked units it has NO use whatsoever. My spell of choice would be Spore Cloud. Which I think is a really good ability (I at least want to see it in the campaign), but I'm sure there are lots of other options and I'm not sure how well Spore Cloud worked.

    Hydralisk - Keep

    Iconic, powerful. Probably needs a major stat adjustment, and the range upgrade is stupid. (There's a REASON they got rid of the Dragoon and Marines' range upgrades. It's just not an interesting upgrade to get) Overall Hydralisks are iconic and fill a necessary role. So keep 'em.

    Mutalisks - Keep

    Iconic, powerful. Pretty much like the Hydralisk. Don't really even think they need any changes.

    Corruptor - Expendable

    If there's any unit I feel is unanimously expendable. The Corruptor is a really, really bad unit. It is so niche. The closest unit to the Corruptor are the Viking and Phoenix. It's air-to-air Protoss and Terran equivalents.

    The Phoenix has harassment potential with anti-gravity, they're quick and fast and good for scouting (much like their predecessor the Corsair). They counter Mutalisks and they're good at hunting down transports and other roaming units (like Overlords) because they're so quick. Vikings aren't quite as versatile as the Phoenix, but they're just so much more cost-effective at what they are than the Corruptor is. Vikings aren't as fast as the Phoenix, but they have 9 range which, well, as Siege Tanks will show you, you don't even have to move to be useful. It's what I like to call a unit's 'sphere of influence'. In Chess for example, a Knight's sphere of influence is any space that it can move to. Anywhere it is threatening.

    In StarCraft, your sphere of influence is decided by two things, your movement speed and your range. So while the Zergling only has melee range, it's sphere of influence is quite large because it's so fast and mobile. And the same is true of the Siege Tank, it's sphere of influence is HUGE because it has 13 range. The same is true of the Viking. So even though it's not any faster than the Corruptor, it's sphere of influence is much larger because it has such a long range. And the same is true of the Phoenix, Void Ray and Mutalisk.

    And while Corruptors make up for this small sphere of influence by being quite durable, they have way more HP than a Viking and slightly more than a Phoenix for the same cost, the problem is, they're SO niche. They have a massive bonus, which is incredibly niche. They're just not very versatile, and what they are GREAT at (countering Battlecruisers and Carriers) isn't really that necessary. They're good for countering Colossi, and they'd counter Phoenix, but Spore Crawlers are better at that.

    So essentially they're limited to countering a very small number of units. Colossi, Battlecruisers, Brood Lords, Carriers and Phoenix. Countering Phoenix, Carriers and Battlecruisers is all but pointless. And the only REAL reason they see any use is because they're an ATA unit on the way to Brood Lords and they counter some things that counter Brood Lords. And that in my mind is just poor game design.

    Even their ability isn't that great. It's a cool ability, but it's not a combat unit ability. I like to break down abilities in Blizzard RTS between 'combat' abilities and 'spellcaster' abilities. In my mind, spellcaster abilities are things like... Fungal Growth, Psionic Storm. Things that you cast and then forget about. It's purpose is for OTHER units in your army, not the ones casting it.

    Abilities like Blink and Anti-gravity are more in the vein of combat abilities. They're intended to be a) used on the fly and b) for the units that are using them in real-time. Combat units have these abilities, the Phoenix and the Stalker. Added to this, Zerg units do not HAVE activated abilities except for Burrow (which EVERY zerg ground unit has). They have passive abilities (like spawn broodling, frenzy and burrowed regen) which is why I think the Corruptor's aerial turret ability was a better fit from a mechanical perspective.

    A) It fit the Zerg spell motif of +1. (Zerg abilities primarily involve adding to your unit count, while Terran abilities primarily involve construction + destruction, while Protoss abilities are for the most part about manipulating the games' environment.)
    B) It was passive.

    Now I know they had their reasons for removing the spell, but to me it almost seems like they threw in the towel too soon. The primary reason for removing it was that when the turrets were created, the enemy could just move away from them. Which makes me wonder why instead of making turrets they didn't just make slow-ish air-borne units instead. Pretty much identical to the Dark Arrow spell from WC3. I'm sure there was a good reason, I'm just thinking this would have made the Corruptor more versatile (it'd be better able to deal with massable enemy air units in a way that would require some skill).

    Another problem with the Corruptor is that it has no synergy whatsoever with your other air units except maybe Brood Lords. Void Ray/Phoenix combos can be interesting. Banshee/Viking works well, as does Viking/Medivac to an extent. But Mutalisk/Corruptor? What synergy is there? I suppose you can use corruption to increase the damage done by Mutalisks (much like the Mutalisk/Devourer combo in BW). But that's kind of messy and isn't as natural as the Phoenix/Void Ray or Viking/Banshee combo. (Where they specifically cover some of one anothers' weaknesses.)

    In general, the turret ability would allow this. As it works like WC3's black arrow, a single corruptor could be used to create turrets. Therefore the air-support that a mutalisk would be giving the corruptor would allow the creation of more turrets. Allowing for synergy.

    Having said all this, I actually don't think it's really possible to get rid of the corruptor, as the Brood Lord mutates from it. And I think it'd be too messy to change the location of the Brood Lord. I think all they can really do is rework the corruptor and make it a better unit. And personally? I'm okay with that. From a design (I love the tentacles) and role perspective I LIKE the Corruptor. It's just such a niche unit, and it's niche isn't THAT useful. And I don't know what I'd replace it with.

    Infestor - keep

    At this point, all three of the main races' casters are so iconic (Ghost, Infestor, High Templar) I can't see any changes really. There are changes I'd WANT them to make to it's spells, but I think mostly it'll just stay the same.

    Brood Lord - keep

    Powerful and at this point, iconic. Can't see them getting rid of it. Probably one of the few mighty tier 3 units that actually has a lot of use in a game.

    Ultralisk - keep

    Strong, powerful, fills it's role. I think it's fixable, and I think it does what it's supposed to.

    Overall I think Zerg would be the only race where there's room to actually just flat out add units. Tier 3 Zerg in particular is just really sparse.

    This brings us to the Terrans.

    SCV - keep

    Marine - keep

    Marauder - keep

    Iconic, strong, supports marines well.

    Reaper - rework

    Already said they were going to.

    Ghost - keep

    Good unit, and like the High Templar/Infestor I think it's just too core to the Terran identity to be totally removed. Though I could easily see them reworking his spells very easily.

    Hellions - keep

    Kind of on the fence about the Hellion, but overall I think it's a unit that fits.

    Siege Tank - keep

    Incredibly iconic, core of the Terran race.

    Thor - keep

    I'd like to see it go, because I think there are more interesting units that could take it's place, but I doubt Blizzard will do away with it.

    Viking - keep

    Iconic, fills it's role well.

    Banshee - keep

    Not really iconic, but I think it does what it's supposed to. And I can't really imagine what they'd replace it with.

    Medivac Dropship - keep

    Transport, and a medic. Unless they brought back the medic or something I don't see how they could get rid of it.

    Raven - keep

    Could possibly rework it's spells, but I think it fits a key role and such and is pretty interesting, don't have much to say about it.

    Battlecruiser - keep

    Pretty iconic top-tier unit. I guess you could say the same about the Carrier, but I like the Battlecruiser better for some reason. I guess they could remove it, but unlike the Carrier I don't think the Battlecruiser fills a role that needs to be or could be filled by another unit.

    Overall, I find it difficult to think of things that they CAN get rid of. Lots of units are very iconic and useful and lots of others I just don't know how they can be replaced in anything resembling a meaningful way.

    Also the only race where I feel there's room to add are the Zerg, and they're the only race with units I feel they can actually do without.

    So it'll be interesting to see how everything goes.


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  2. #2

    Default Re: What goes, what stays?

    Agree with you on the Carrier. The carrier does great DPS and they're pretty awesome. But the build time is the main issue I feel. Perhaps HP as well but probably not.

    Chronoboost is probably the least explored and underappreciated macro mechanic. In theory it should help with lots of timings of different kinds. Maybe it's fine. Maybe not.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: What goes, what stays?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackhammerIV View Post
    Agree with you on the Carrier. The carrier does great DPS and they're pretty awesome. But the build time is the main issue I feel. Perhaps HP as well but probably not.
    I just think they're boring mostly. And the Protoss need an air-borne response to marines of some sort. Which the Carrier should be, but it really isn't.

    Chronoboost is probably the least explored and underappreciated macro mechanic. In theory it should help with lots of timings of different kinds. Maybe it's fine. Maybe not.
    I like Chrono Boost, it's just really one-note. They stuck it on the Nexus because they couldn't make the Monolith/Dark Pylon/Obelisk work. (And I think they wanted all the macro mechanics to be bound by your number of expansions.)


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  4. #4
    xIHyIDraX's Avatar Junior Member
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    Default Re: What goes, what stays?

    I think zerg has needed alot of work sense early days of beta and never got it just cause blizzard cares so little about zerg. They took out the defacto cogs of zerg mid game (lurkers, hydras, scourge) and replaced them with poor options. I don't really see blizzard's line of thinking with zerg units and the map construction; map size, warp ins, and timing attacks have made it so that zerg needs balanced strait up fight units. Outside of the buffed infestor which compensates for this there is no zerg unit before that fulfills this role in an economical manner. Roach, Hydra, Corrupter, and Infestor all need changes in order to create more fluid transitions and balanced play. Zerg tier 3 just fails completely to ghost and blink stalkers if a theoretical game reaches hive tech with both players on even footing. Really without fungal zerg would be unplayable and that's not how it should be. Been playing zerg in Sc2 sense beta and the feel is still horrible; zerg is like a tool box with all the wrong instruments.

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