Patch 1.4.0

[Skyze]

well, ghosts are a unit that you can't really build many early, to take advantage of their skillset (least snipe).. but what the gas reduction patch did, was the LATEGAME situation, where most players are floating 3000 minerals but are starved for gas. That is where ghosts were significantly buffed, and now TvZ ghosts are really strong. If it was still 150 gas, even tho its cheaper at 150 min also, the gas constraint is too much for terran to significantly produce ghosts + medivacs + tanks. Remember, terrans have mules, so an extra 50 minerals as opposed to 50 gas is pretty substansial.

As far as protoss/zerg is concerned, its not THAT bad yet, but I just see it snowballing out of control the further into the metagame we go. As it stands right now, zerg has such a large window of time where they can exponentally increase their economy and protoss has no way to punish them for it, with the warpgate/zealot nerfs in 1.3 (which were done to fix PvP 4gate, but just killed P in the other matchups, like how the 1-1-1 is so strong now relates back to that change) - So with that being said, a good zerg who can macro well will always have such a huge lead in the early-midgame, and from there on its an up-hill battle for protoss to try and get back into the game. Infestors cancel out all Protoss air units too (can't make carrier/mother due to NP, cant phoenix or voidray due to fungal) and you require HT to feedback, if you don't then NP'd collosus and fungaled everything else.

Protoss basically does these timing attacks (like archon/zealot +1 or voidray stalker vs terran) because they NEED to, if they don't do something then Protoss falls too far behind and the lategame composition is just not able to compete with Infestors/Ghosts, which nigate all protoss lategame units like HT and Motherships.

But I definitely understand that under Masters level, Protoss is significantly stronger as the other races can't take advantage of those situations. Which is why blizzard is hesitant to make the proper balance changes, because they are afraid its going to alienate the non-competitive community and make protoss too strong there. Its a shame =[

Overall though, I feel that the only real issues is Infestors and Ghosts. Those two units just are so versatile and affordable its insane, and protoss has nothing similar (HTs are ok but not in those levels) -- As far as the 1-1-1 goes, what I think protoss needs is a tier 1 or early tier 2 small AOE unit, kinda like the hellion. I think that would solve all the problems. Even the Reaver, as long as you could get one out around the timeframe of the immortal rather than the collosus. Just something to deal with the mass marine timing balls (as they are the problem, not the tanks/vikings/banshees/raven, those are the units that distract you from the marines dealing the insane DPS)

so HOTS give Protoss a earlier AOE (terran has hellions, zerg has banelings.. thats why mass marine timing attks doesnt kill them) and fix ghost/infestor! game would be very close then.

[JackhammerIV]

I wonder if right now terrans have changed their thinking. Us protosses have been complaining since SC2 came out that ghosts and their EMP are too damn strong against Protoss. And everyone kept saying among all the spellcasters the HT was the best. Well not anymore.

I don't get the whole balance for lower league argument. The way the Blizzard ladder system works the "OP" race would just overall get a lower benchmark to reach higher leagues. Then all the players who could best abuse the imbalance would just go into higher leagues.

And it's all subjective. Each individual has a worst matchup and the ladder system makes sure they have a close to 50% win rate. So i don't see why they don't just balance it for competitive play. The result at worst would be a long losing streak for some, a long winning streak for others then normalising.

I hope this Protoss decline is just a trend and someone will figure something out for PvT and PvZ. Some way or build to just stay safe and reach the late game on even ground. I dunno maybe some weird thing where after warp gate is done chronoboosting warpgates for higher gateway production for X amount of time. Being aggressive with a larger than normal gateway army but still macroing behind it.

[Todie]

key concept here is close to 50% win rate; that is overall. if my TvP is weak and P gets buffed, my TvP will be even weaker, and from losing all the more vs protosses ill face weaker terrans and zergs, making these matchups even stronger for me. (as well as facing weaker P's witch will increase my winrate vs P but stay lower than TvT and TvZ)

i think tehy're msotly balancing for competitive play, theyre just being very careful about it and trying to consider the whole picture, inclduing what may still happen.

[Skyze]

well, the issue mainly is that right now in GSL (the highest form of competition in SC2, no one can deny that), even the top notch protoss players are losing to Code B-skill level players of terran/zerg.. At some point, you have to look at the stats and situations and you can't just say its a metagame issue that will be resolved anytime soon. Anyone with knowledge of the game can see that theres some very strong macro/micro (like top 5 in the world) players on protoss, such as MC, and hes getting dominated by 1-1-1 or infestor/ling zergs like hes some diamond player.

Then you have players like JYP who are trying all the best micro tricks in the book; templar storm dropping pylons, immortal drops in the back while collosus on side cliff to catch marines running to the back, DT harassing and all this while taking more bases, and STILL getting absolutely dominated when it comes time to fight a real battle.

The issue is protoss is like in the "middle" of each race in terms of attacking methods. Their units are too expensive to suicide-harass like zerg does (throwing away 20 lings costs nothing for the dmg it can do, but throwing away 10 zealots is very expensive for the little damage they achieve due to speed of chasing drones) - and their "deathball" army is just not cutting it vs any infestor or ghost mixed armies. Harassing and head-on fights are both 2nd rate, so what are you left with doing? Just praying for your opponent to make a fatal mistake, thats how playing protoss is right now.

Least before infestor and ghost usage (it wasnt due to them being bad, just people not realizing their insane potential), Protoss "deathball" was worth getting, yet was still beatable by well-compositioned armies (baneling drops with roach/hydra, or marine/marauder/viking still could beat it).. With ghosts and infestors, that 50/50 balance which micro wins, is now in favor of non-protoss by at least 75% or more.

[JackhammerIV]

I remember back in those days. Many months ago. I argued to the Terrans/Zergs that Protoss are just using pretty much most of our units and disregarding the ones we consider not worth getting (due to cost, time, fragility). And i told them they need to try new units, new unit mixes, new attacking styles then they could deal with Protoss.

Many Protoss nerfs later they've found their new units and new unit mixes to deal with a Protoss deathball that's become less scary because they realise how immobile it is and how long it takes for Protoss to get there.

Perhaps warp prisms can be the harass tool Protoss needs right now. Immortal buff would make early game immortal timings stronger. But it still feels like robo reliance which Protoss kind of always had. Maybe Protoss just needs a scarier deathball. Like 8 colossi and 20 void rays, plus a mothership. Or maybe somehow carriers will be the solution (LOL).

But damn man I want an EMP radius nerf. Looking at GSL, etc even with casting units spread quite well in a line it still only takes 2-3 EMPs and pretty much at this point terran can easily get those off at the highest levels.

[JackhammerIV]

O....M.....G.....
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1213111662

-Infestor's Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units.

Kind of extreme but it does greatly increase the effectiveness of Protoss deathballs PvZ. No more...mothership stealing.:O No more colossi and archon stealing. OMG.....almost seems like too much. But fungal and infested terran did seem harder to deal with and neural was like the icing on the cake.

[Skyze]

Yea I just saw that on TL also.. while im happy kinda (ive been working on a mothership build but it kept getting owned by NP) - It may be a bit too much. Really, just make the mothership and carriers not able to be NP'd. I think it hurts ZvT more, because NP was the main counter vs thors..

So yea, maybe they should bring it back abit and just stop NP on massive air units. That would fix it IMO. I still think fungal and infested terrans are the main problem with infestors, NP isnt too bad other than the stealing mothership crap (it basically means mothership is worthless atm due to how much tech/cost it is, compared to a 100/150 2supply unit that can be had within the first 8 minutes..)

[JackhammerIV]

Yea I just saw that on TL also.. while im happy kinda (ive been working on a mothership build but it kept getting owned by NP) - It may be a bit too much. Really, just make the mothership and carriers not able to be NP'd. I think it hurts ZvT more, because NP was the main counter vs thors..

So yea, maybe they should bring it back abit and just stop NP on massive air units. That would fix it IMO. I still think fungal and infested terrans are the main problem with infestors, NP isnt too bad other than the stealing mothership crap (it basically means mothership is worthless atm due to how much tech/cost it is, compared to a 100/150 2supply unit that can be had within the first 8 minutes..)

Well they could just make it selective. Like Ultras can't be mind controlled. Just make it so certain units can't be mind controlled. No need to make it specifically massive air units.

[Aldrius]

Yeah, they could have just given the Mothership an equivalent to "Frenzy" =S

For my money, Fungal Growth should not do damage, they should give the Corrupter a different spell (or a completely different mechanic) and Fungal Growth should apply the Corruption effect to every unit it hits instead of doing damage.

An ability that immobilizes AND does damage is just kind of ridiculous. No matter how much damage it does.

It's just kind of a situation where all of Zerg's eggs are in one basket. Overseer's serve little purpose aside from scouting and enemy harassment, Corrupters are Air to Air units, not spellcasters. So they're just left with the Infestor being good, and it is. But I'd rather the Infestor have more utility (more health and movement speed) than have the ridiculously strong spells it has now.

Though I think this NP change is also kinda ludicrous. If they're going to make a change like that, it should really be compensated somewhere else. (Either reduced in energy cost, no longer require a research, something like that.) Because it's only real use now is on Immortals and Siege Tanks.

I love the Infestor conceptually, as an agent of terror and chaos spreading dissension in the enemy ranks, but they have to figure out some way to make it work better I think without it being a one-man army.

And I say all this as a zerg player.

[JackhammerIV]

So PTR is finally available for Europe. The sight and not being able to warp in on ramps....damn.....as long as Protosses veto Tal'Darim and are responsible about making sentries and using forcefields...offensive 4 gates are pretty dead.

Offensive blinking up ramps too (without observers). Woah.......

EDIT: Could probably imagine Korean 4gate style (the one with zealots only) could get really popular again.