Patch 1.4.0

[TheEconomist]

No, when going for a standard protoss macro build, you don't just get a sentry.

When you're 2-basing, especially on maps that you can cannon off of, yeah. But, that's not what we're talking about, is it.

If a zerg only sees 1 sentry at a point in the game where the P " should " have at least 3-4, he will suspect some kind of funky 1 base play.

Sure, a genius Zerg player on the level of July might, but, for the lesser Zerg players, maybe there not being a big ass nexus next to the natural expansion minerals would give it away

I'm pretty sure you've lost track of what we're (at least what I am) talking about.

[Peanutbutter]

Sure, a genius Zerg player on the level of July might, but, for the lesser Zerg players, maybe there not being a big ass nexus next to the natural expansion minerals would give it away

No, your average diamond zerg player is sure as hell able to do that :P

I'm pretty sure you've lost track of what we're (at least what I am) talking about.

Yeah, sorry for derailing this debate. It turned from talking about how significant the blink nerf is, to discussing the viability of 1 basing in PvZ.

[TheEconomist]

No, your average diamond zerg player is sure as hell able to do that :P

It's called sarcasm.

[Todie]

i almost cant tell how far you're goign with your sarcasm Tychus, just incase anyone reading isnt clear on how it goes, ill just point out that the buildup of the sentry count generally happens before this macro-Protoss plants the nexus..

seeing the absence of the nexus is obviously a tell, but it happens later, when it mgiht be too late to react optimally (esp if threes a risk that a probe has been able to sneak a proxy pylon up; a 4gate may be in full swing any second) ... and then tehre is the risk of the nexus-cancel mind-trick to potentially turn this tell-or-no-tell nexus spotting buisnis on its head.


... this whole debacle has me thinking about protoss potential for scout-denial vs Z; hen/how it can be done and what the tradeoffs are. i geuss everything hinges on the metabolicboost timing; if its late enough stalkers should be able to make early ling-scouitng a pricey endeavour!

[TheEconomist]

i almost cant tell how far you're goign with your sarcasm Tychus

Otherwise out of place smilies and tongue-in-cheek or out-of-character illogical statements should be your first clue when I'm being sarcastic or joking. (To clarify: not trying to be a smart-ass here )

Anyways, back on subject, its easy to stop a player from being able to tell how many Sentries you have. Unless they try to ram a bunch of Zerglings up your ramp, there's not much reason for your Sentry(s) to be at the front anyways, especially if you can be slick with your pylons, but, if they have enough Zerglings to take care of your block enough to make you need to force field, then you probably should just transition into an expansion since they were probably planning on early aggression anyways. Sometimes I have to do that.

But, we're getting side tracked here, the key is to simply make your early Blinker rush look like a standard 4gate into Nexus which I've found is effortless to do regardless of any scouting the Zerg does, at least in time to stop me. Other than that, just be tight with your timings and micro. Almost nothing else matters, really, at least until the metagame changes or this strategy becomes a common metagame-counter. It all comes down to your timings and, mostly, your micro. Which, I'm guessing, is why it's not popular at Diamond and lower. And, not used in Masters because the Zerg are much more adaptable at that skill level, and your Stalker micro has to be quite a bit better than your opponents since they're constantly reinforcing their units and you aren't as much.

In summation, a Zealot and a Stalker at your front isn't a tell-tale sign, in my opinion. Sure, it narrows the suspected builds from your opponent, but there's still enough options that a Zerg player won't immediately assume Blinkers, especially since, when I random as Zerg, I never see a Protoss go fast 1-base Blinkers against me so I doubt its very common. I even had to make this build order up myself without any pro-replay help. And, like you said, I usually pretend to be expanding before I push out. That's not hard to pull off unless its on a map where the Overlord can hide easily out of Stalker range but within vision of the Nexus.

I see no reason for a Zerg to start massing up units just because of those two units. Naturally, yes, they're going to be tiny bit more suspicious, but that's normal metagaming and that's not what I'm counting on, especially since Zerg players usually throw down some Spines instead of making more Roaches or Zerglings, which makes it all the better for me sine Blinkers are designed to get around such defenses. What I'm counting on is them not stopping Drone production to mass up units, which I'm not sure I've ever seen them do when I decide to go fast Blinkers. Zerg players typically like to stick to their flavor of the month build orders which tends to be heavily macro oriented and it takes an obvious smack in the face for them to decide that they need to start massing units instead of macroing if its not at a point in time that the pre-set build order had already planned.

Maybe it's because I'm only playing against medium-high Diamond players at the moment, but, I've never had a problem with a Zerg figuring out my moves at this point in the metagame. Maybe it's because they're Diamond or because my MMR is somewhat lower than it should be because just about every Terran game I get now involves some kind of all-in when I'm Protoss, which I do often times lose.

-- As for my Nexus comment, I'll admit all of this back and forth with various strategies and apects of each had me confused. I meant to say that, there not being a Nexus there is a clear indiciation that there's not some early 2-base macro fast expand with Forge build. So, my apologies for that. It seems my sarcasm was unfounded this time.

[Twilice]

tl:dr

[TheEconomist]

No need to be so butthurt about our last conversation

[Twilice]

I always think it's about the patch 1.4 changes, then I see the conversation and I totally forget what you are even talking about. Then I try to read back, but I just get more confused.

[Todie]

If youre actually hiding your first few sentries (or "would-be sentry" gateway units past the first two) then it becomes important how the zerg manoeuvres at your front to keep looking; whats coming out of your gateway? is anything changing? ... if it stays confused, itll probably sacrifice the overlord early, because knowing where your early gas is going is critical.

... we're not part of the same ladder population so i can only really say that it seems the NA PvZ metagame seems different than the EU one (at least how i left it) ... i think i understand your position overall; if you're predominantly facing zergs that react somewhat greedily to what you generally show them and defend predominantly by crawlers, i understand how & why your onebase blink build works, but form the zerg perspective, i would most definitely not attribute a loss to this to any disparity in micromanagement, but a case of insignificant scouting and/or misread and/or under-preparation / too narrow defensive priorities in the face of known and possible threats.

... personally i rarely rellied THAT heavily on crawlers for defense, iirc, at one point one-base timings were so common on certain maps that i made a habit of stopping at about half saturation on the nat while stockpiling larva and scouting extensively & continually to learn if it was safe to drone /tech / get more gas/take a third etc..

... So if your opponent is suspicious enough and has a feel for what drone-count to safely pause at, youre not gonna brake him even if all he does is a-move with 50 apm; yuu might have a cost effective fight and escape largely unscathed, but even then you'll probably be on even footing at best in the next sequence.


... long story short, i geuss this means i consider one-base-blink a cheese build PvZ; it rellies on your opponent fucking up in not playing safe enough, though, playing zerg safe can be hard, especially if kept deep in the dark.



... its refreshing to read that and type this out; i havnt really thought about ZvP matters in quite a while.

[TheEconomist]

i would most definitely not attribute a loss to this to any disparity in micromanagement, but a case of insignificant scouting and/or misread and/or under-preparation / too narrow defensive priorities in the face of known and possible threats.

Early Zerg units don't have much micro to them so I'm mostly talking about micro from the aggressive Protoss (i.e. blink back the Stalkers at the right time, kite Zerglings, line up roaches, etc.) If you screw up your micro and lose more Stalkers than you should have, you've effectively lost. Personally, that's why I think its not very popular. It's a very effective strategy (atm) if done correctly but its hard to do correctly.

But, I'm not sure I've ever had a Zerg be able to scout well enough to be able to call it "a known and possible threat." For all they know, I'm going Void Ray harass, which is faaaaaaaaar more common, and requires more Queens and Spore Colonies (aka easy picking for Stalkers). So, what they make to prevent a Void Ray harass actually helps me. Sometimes I'll waltz into a base and all they have are 2-3 Spore Colonies, 2-3 Queens, and a few other minor units.

playing zerg safe can be hard, especially if kept deep in the dark

Its very hard because they see nothing and there's so many viable strategies against Zerg that a Protoss could go. Furthermore, a Zerg must macro heavy in the early game to overpower a Protoss so the Zergs just get used to the risk, in my opinion.

i geuss this means i consider one-base-blink a cheese build PvZ

It mostly certainly is. It relies heavily on luck/scouting and it either works very well or you might as well just GG. It's definitely a cheese, just not one that is idiotic and a free ticket to Masters. It takes skill

--

I always think it's about the patch 1.4 changes

. . . It is about patch 1.4 changes.

Then I try to read back, but I just get more confused.

What's your point? Are you trying to say that you can't read very well?