How did they screw up the single player that bad?

[Romla]

Wrong, but continue

Wrong without arguments... See this for instance - II.a, V.b and other sections:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2228426678

Yes they were. Doesn't change the fact that line, while truthful, is incredibly dumb and cheesy. Especially because it was out of left field and total overreaction from Zasz. "oh my GOD, she threatened me? She'll get us all killed!"

It is not so much overreacting if you realize that Zasz and other Cerebrates were not used to defiance in the Swarm. Even less so when he was completely right and he also said that only as a side note, he didn't mean it dead serious at that time.

Yeah, being the leader of the main antagonists of the series, so far anyway, will do that. Silly thing to complain about, like complaining that SC1 everything was about the Overmind.

There wasn't everything about the Overmind in SC1. Kerrigan was the main character of Brood War and it seems she will be the main character of the whole SC2 trilogy. I want at least better performance from her, because in WoL she was simply pathetic, just like Mengsk (III.a).

It was hardly "more" on the joking side. The newscasts were obviously intended as comic relief and are optional, if you don't care for them fine, but they are not an integral part of the story. It's not like Jar-Jar Binks, if you find them annoying and out of place its a simple matter to just ignore them and not watch them.

I don't want to have to ignore parts of the story because these parts are bad or completely out of the place. I like humour, but the newscasts were almost absurd sometimes. And like I said there are other serious moments where you are thinking if they were joking or not - some are described in the article I referenced above.

Personally though I liked seeing how the media always spun Raynor's actions to make him look like a terrorist, it was funny to see them stretch the truth. But then I watch Jon Stewart so I'm used to that sort of thing being mocked .

It was fun, but in a very naive way.

[Gradius]

Yes there was. Selendis told Raynor they detected the colonists were infested and they had to be wiped out, standard procedure for the Protoss. Raynor refuses to let them do this and tries to protect them, which Selendis doesn't stand for. My issue with the mission isn't the negotiations, its Selendis' response when Raynor blows up the Purifier is "okay okay yeesh, we're going". As TV Tropes puts it, if the theory that Selendis is the Ep 4 Executor is true, her Honor Before Reason way of doing things explains a lot of the idiocies of the Protoss in Brood War.

The "diplomacy" was good enough for the casual player, but after playing the first game & reading the DT saga, I didn't buy it too well. Selendis comes off as extremely rational in the DT saga, and Protoss are supposed to be smarter than humans in general (which is why my mind reeled when Raynor took down the Fleet of the Executor with his guerrilla tactics).

The problem is not the "honor before reason" thing IMO but the fact that reality shifts based on your decision, just like in the Tosh missions choice. If you pick Selendis, the infestation is very bad and Hanson doesn't find the cure. If you pick Hanson, the infestation is non-existent and she does find a cure (which is total BS in my opinion). The "choices" were meaningless and detrimental to the plot.

She knows what they can do.

Fair enough, but how well is this explained to the player? If she knew what it was going to do, why was she right at ground zero when the artifact went off?

Unless the Narud-Duran thing turns out to be something substantial.

But it's not in the game (and yes it has to be in this game for this game to make sense).

Fair point. Though you could argue that thanks to the DT Saga we know the Tal'darim are working for Ulrezaj (or rather are going on orders from him from before he got locked up), and even if they aren't by this point we know they're still bad news. We know that in the Overmind's vision, somehow Kerrigan was killed and with her gone the Dark Voice reigns. Ulrezaj, presumably working for the Dark Voice, sends out the Tal'darim to find and protect the artifacts to make sure that any attempt to save Kerrigan's life and alter the foreseen future doesn't happen.

That's a good way to tie them in, but not relevant to the casual player. The Tal'Darim faction also doesn't make sense in Wings of Liberty if what we read about them in the DT saga was true.

As for the Executor's name, they named him in data files somewhere I believe, "Nyon" or something. Why they didn't use it in the missions, I'm not sure.

The other Tal'Darim Executor was named Lhassir. Most players probably wouldn't notice there was more than 1 since they're so generic. =/

On the other hand, complaining about the Dark Voice stuff when it is perfectly obvious that we aren't being given the full story yet is ignorant. It's a plot hole about why Mengsk wants the artifacts. It's set-up for the sequel about how Mengsk has his hand in the Hybrids.

I agree about Mengsk, but I'm not sure you understand the problem the reviewer had with the Dark Voice. The Dark Voice makes the background for the story unnecessarily convoluted (the protoss & zerg are fighting because the dark voice infiltrated the Overmind's brain to make him want to attack the protoss, so that he can make hybrids, so that he can destroy everything, so that he can rule once everyone is dead. The overmind, who has no free will, finds a way to game the system by creating a successor who will have more free will than him and then save the universe). This sounds stupid now, and it will still be stupid in the expansions.

[Drake Clawfang]

Wrong without arguments... See this for instance - II.a, V.b and other sections:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2228426678

Neither has anything to do with characters beyond Raynor and Kerrigan, irrelevant therefore.

It is not so much overreacting if you realize that Zasz and other Cerebrates were not used to defiance in the Swarm. Even less so when he was completely right and he also said that only as a side note, he didn't mean it dead serious at that time.

It was overreacting, and incredibly cheesy. That Zasz was right doesn't make the line less dumb, it's an irrelevant note. "That's a lot of fish". Yes, it was Mr. Brodderick. Doesn't mean it wasn't a ridiculous thing to say.

There wasn't everything about the Overmind in SC1. Kerrigan was the main character of Brood War and it seems she will be the main character of the whole SC2 trilogy. I want at least better performance from her, because in WoL she was simply pathetic, just like Mengsk (III.a).

I said SC, not Brood War. And the point still stands, when you're the head of the major antagonistic fashion, you are going to be important to the plot. Duh. That Kerrigan is up to form is a valid complaint, that she was central to the story is not.

I don't want to have to ignore parts of the story because these parts are bad or completely out of the place. I like humour, but the newscasts were almost absurd sometimes. And like I said there are other serious moments where you are thinking if they were joking or not - some are described in the article I referenced above.

And you completely miss my point. Yes they are absurd, its called comic relief, they are not central to the story, they're commentary and nothing more.

Fair enough, but how well is this explained to the player? If she knew what it was going to do, why was she right at ground zero when the artifact went off?

I don't see Kerrigan, infested or no, as the kind to retreat even if she's gonna lose. Especially as the Queen of Blades she's arrogant beyond words. I don't see her going "oh shit" when the Artifact is brought in and running away because she's afraid of its power. She was afraid of them, as Narud tells us, but she isn't going to retreat like that, especially when they challenged her on her home turf.

But it's not in the game (and yes it has to be in this game for this game to make sense).

Have to be, no. Could have been, perhaps should, but it didn't need to be.

That's a good way to tie them in, but not relevant to the casual player. The Tal'Darim faction also doesn't make sense in Wings of Liberty if what we read about them in the DT saga was true.

Well, they had functioning transports IIRC in the DT books. It isn't unreasonable Ulrezaj sent a few of them out to other worlds. We weren't given a good feel for the sizes of the Tal'darim in the DT books. As for the size of the Tal'darim in the campaign, you can chalk that up to poor representation of their faction, much as the Raiders can build huge armies despite their supposed lack of manpower and resources.

I agree about Mengsk, but I'm not sure you understand the problem the reviewer had with the Dark Voice. The Dark Voice makes the background for the story unnecessarily convoluted (the protoss & zerg are fighting because the dark voice infiltrated the Overmind's brain to make him want to attack the protoss, so that he can make hybrids, so that he can destroy everything, so that he can rule once everyone is dead. The overmind, who has no free will, finds a way to game the system by creating a successor who will have more free will than him and then save the universe). This sounds stupid now, and it will still be stupid in the expansions.

If the complain isn't about the Dark Voice itself but the complexity of the story, that's a simple preference of choice and not a flaw. I don't mind complex stories, I've grown up playing Legacy of Kain and Kingdom Hearts, bring it on.

Now, does it sound stupid? No. The Overmind was controlled by another force who was planning to exterminate all life, so to try and defy the objectives set for it he creates Kerrigan and gets himself killed so the swarm has a leader not bound to the Dark Voice. I don't have a problem with this. "Stupid" is slightly a harsh term, and it's really premature to declare "it will still be stupid in the expansions" because you don't know how they're going to expand on this plot.

[Gradius]

Have to be, no. Could have been, perhaps should, but it didn't need to be.

If "it didn't need to be" in the game that's because storylines based on artifacts are lazy writing. As it stands, it makes little sense that Valerian knew the artifacts would deinfest Kerrigan and invest so much money into the venture, considering that he or his Moebius buddies had no access to any of the aforementioned artifacts.

Well, they had functioning transports IIRC in the DT books. It isn't unreasonable Ulrezaj sent a few of them out to other worlds. We weren't given a good feel for the sizes of the Tal'darim in the DT books. As for the size of the Tal'darim in the campaign, you can chalk that up to poor representation of their faction, much as the Raiders can build huge armies despite their supposed lack of manpower and resources.

The Tal'Darim were originally some protoss guys in a cave. The name of Tal'Darim was created specifically for those guys in the cave. Furthermore, Tal'Darim should have zero khalai units such as high templar or immortals since sundrop robs them of their ability to connect to the Khala.

The ball was dropped on Raynor's faction back when Aaron Rosenburg destroyed Raynor's fleet that he acquired back in Queen of Blades. We see what I think is Raynor's fleet in the "Better Future" cinematic, but not in any other stage of the game. :/

If the complain isn't about the Dark Voice itself but the complexity of the story, that's a simple preference of choice and not a flaw. I don't mind complex stories, I've grown up playing Legacy of Kain and Kingdom Hearts, bring it on.

Now, does it sound stupid? No. The Overmind was controlled by another force who was planning to exterminate all life, so to try and defy the objectives set for it he creates Kerrigan and gets himself killed so the swarm has a leader not bound to the Dark Voice. I don't have a problem with this. "Stupid" is slightly a harsh term, and it's really premature to declare "it will still be stupid in the expansions" because you don't know how they're going to expand on this plot.

"Convoluted" implies unnecessary & frivolous complexity, not just good ol' fashioned complexity. Even if you can rationalize what the Dark Voice & Overmind do, the fact of the matter is that all that crap could have been cut out of the game and nothing would have changed.

Look at the reason for why races fight in SC. The Overmind infests Chau Sara because he is looking for ways to make the Swarm stronger (a natural instinct). Now we have TvZ. The Protoss want to help the humans by cleansing the world of infestation, so now we have PvZ. But this only pisses off the humans, so now we have PvT. We didn't have to wait for future expansions for any of this to make sense, and the storyline was natural & fluid. It later evolves into a more complicated plot (Mengsk wants to destroy the Confederacy (TvT) but the Protoss want to save the planet (PvZ). But Mengsk can't let the Confederates escape so he has to fight the Protoss too (TvP).

Compare this to WoL where all the action starts because the Zerg invade Mar Sara (which we find out in a few missions is because Kerrigan wants artifacts, and we only find out why she wants them at the end of the campaign). Tychus somehow finds Raynor and says that the Moebius boys also want the artifacts (which we'll find out why in some later expansion when the Narud-Duran thing starts to mean something). Then Mengsk wants the artifacts too in the second mission of the game (we don't know why). The story & conflict hinges around the artifacts, yet the writers have given crappy reasons as to why. Then the story meanders between the Zerg invasion & rebellion against mengsk & random money-making ventures.

[Drake Clawfang]

If "it didn't need to be" in the game that's because storylines based on artifacts are lazy writing. As it stands, it makes little sense that Valerian knew the artifacts would deinfest Kerrigan and invest so much money into the venture, considering that he or his Moebius buddies had no access to any of the aforementioned artifacts.

Agreed as a whole that as it stands, the artifacts were MacGuffins. And as tired as this card is and as weak as it is, I maintain the sequel will probably elaborate on them. Mengsk, it just came to me, was probably after the artifacts for the same reason Ulrezaj was, if we assume he took orders directly from the Dark Voice then he was probably trying to keep them from Raynor.

The Tal'Darim were originally some protoss guys in a cave. The name of Tal'Darim was created specifically for those guys in the cave. Furthermore, Tal'Darim should have zero khalai units such as high templar or immortals since sundrop robs them of their ability to connect to the Khala.

The ball was dropped on Raynor's faction back when Aaron Rosenburg destroyed Raynor's fleet that he acquired back in Queen of Blades. We see what I think is Raynor's fleet in the "Better Future" cinematic, but not in any other stage of the game. :/

Agreed. At times I think the Starcraft story would work better as novels, given that Blizzard seems to have trouble conveying the image they want of the SC universe in their games, even in the original SC (remember the rage at the change in Raynor's appearance?)

EDIT - Also, that its a poor way to set up characters by tying them into the books, a matter of opinion, but still, Matt and Nova would like a word with you. Matt in particular is Raynor's second-in-command and is basically his Adjutant-equivalent advisor, but is completely foreign to anyone who hasn't read Queen of Blades. I don't have a problem with this sort of thing myself. People who have read the books are like "oh, Matt is here, and the Tal'darim are here, oh crap Ulrezaj?" Players who haven't can be introduced to them now and are thus encouraged to read the books to discover their backstories.

[Romla]

I agree about Mengsk, but I'm not sure you understand the problem the reviewer had with the Dark Voice. The Dark Voice makes the background for the story unnecessarily convoluted (the protoss & zerg are fighting because the dark voice infiltrated the Overmind's brain to make him want to attack the protoss, so that he can make hybrids, so that he can destroy everything, so that he can rule once everyone is dead. The overmind, who has no free will, finds a way to game the system by creating a successor who will have more free will than him and then save the universe). This sounds stupid now, and it will still be stupid in the expansions.

It really sounds stupid when it is said just like that, surely it is also not a new discovery, but it so strongly reminds me of Warcraft 3 story, which was good for a fantasy themed Warcraft. It doesn't need to be precise, but I see it very similar to this:

The Dark Voice = Archimonde
Xel'Naga = Burning Legion
Overmind = Ner'zhul
Kerrigan = Arthas
Duran = Tichondrius or Kil'jaeden
Zeratul = Medivh The Prophet
Zerg = Orcs
Hybrids = Undead
Protoss = Elves
Terran = Humans
and so on...

I don't need to say I don't like it because I don't want more of the same in regards of story.

[TheEconomist]

The Dark Voice = Archimonde

We don't know very much about the Dark Voice so this could be true or false.

Xel'Naga = Burning Legion

Only in a very vague way.

Zeratul = Medivh The Prophet

LOL no

Zerg = Orcs

You chose Orcs instead of Undead?

Hybrids = Undead

Not even close really, except they're the strongest "race" but that's kind of a RTS necessity after awhile.

Protoss = Elves

LOL No.

[Romla]

Neither has anything to do with characters beyond Raynor and Kerrigan, irrelevant therefore.

You must read it, preferably whole. Many characters in SC2 are forgetting what was Kerrigan doing in SC1, it is very relevant for everyone who wants to bear the story in WoL at least a bit seriously.

It was overreacting, and incredibly cheesy. That Zasz was right doesn't make the line less dumb, it's an irrelevant note. "That's a lot of fish". Yes, it was Mr. Brodderick. Doesn't mean it wasn't a ridiculous thing to say.

But we are not talking about fish here. Zasz said that in anger, was it cheesy? Maybe. But definitely not so much cheesy like 50% of dialogue in WoL.

I said SC, not Brood War. And the point still stands, when you're the head of the major antagonistic fashion, you are going to be important to the plot. Duh. That Kerrigan is up to form is a valid complaint, that she was central to the story is not.

When parody of a character is a central of the story, then it is a very valid complaint, if it is not a comedy.

And you completely miss my point. Yes they are absurd, its called comic relief, they are not central to the story, they're commentary and nothing more.

And you completely missed my point. They are not the only thing for laughing at sarcastically in WoL.

[Romla]

LOL No

These are very interesting arguments, maybe think about it some time before you write LOL No. Zergs are just like Orcs in this story Gradius wrote up above, and Hybrids are definitely like Undead, they are new weapon after Zergs failed. The others are also very similar to their Warcraft counterparts.

And I hope I am completely wrong because I do not want to play the same game twice, but what we now know seems very similar to W3.

[Drake Clawfang]

You must read it, preferably whole.

Not happening, not gonna spend half an hour to read an essay on how horrible the story is. If you have a point make it, don't make me look for it on someone else's post.

But we are not talking about fish here.

Once again you miss the point.

Zasz said that in anger, was it cheesy? Maybe. But definitely not so much cheesy like 50% of dialogue in WoL.

50%? Please.

When parody of a character is a central of the story, then it is a very valid complaint, if it is not a comedy.

....what? Kerrigan a parody? That's absurd and you know it.

And you completely missed my point. They are not the only thing for laughing at sarcastically in WoL.

Then name the rest.