How did they screw up the single player that bad?

[Laurentian]

How is mass genocide not evil? He's the Stalin of the SC universe. I didn't know this was debatable. =/

Heh, appropriate that your are calling him the Stalin of the SC universe since moral relativism was embraced by Stalinist apologists.

[mr. peasant]

How is mass genocide not evil? He's the Stalin of the SC universe. I didn't know this was debatable. =/

Think about it carefully - who exactly did the mass killing? The Zerg infested small subsections of the populations of Chau Sara and Mar Sara (case in point, none of Raynor's militia were infested and the Infested Command Centre was the first time they encountered such a phenomenon). The only times when the Zerg were explicitly stated as killing en masse was when they were manipulated by the Psi Emitters. Meanwhile, it wasTassadar who arrived and wiped out Chau Sara and Mar Sara's inhabitants. Meaning, it's Tassadar, who is basically a Jesus surrogate, who committed genocide. How's that for morally grey?

[Laurentian]

Think about it carefully - who exactly did the mass killing? The Zerg infested small subsections of the populations of Chau Sara and Mar Sara (case in point, none of Raynor's militia were infested and the Infested Command Centre was the first time they encountered such a phenomenon). It was then Tassadar who arrived and wiped out both planets' inhabitants. Meaning, it's Tassadar, who is basically a Jesus surrogate, who committed genocide. How's that for morally grey?

The protoss wiping out planets is supposed to be wrong. Tassadar stops it and in WOL you are supposed to defend the colonists from Protoss who want to do the same. Also you are deflecting the issue and saying "everybody does it."

[mr. peasant]

The protoss wiping out planets is supposed to be wrong. Tassadar stops it and in WOL you are supposed to defend the colonists from Protoss who want to do the same. Also you are deflecting the issue and saying "everybody does it."

Not deflecting. My original point is and always has been as thus:

Although Blizzard has interpreted the story with a right-and-wrong, good-and-evil morality (through emphasis of certain events, de-emphasis in some and deflection of responsibility in others), the actual events, when viewed through an objective lens, are much more ambiguous. The 'good guys' do quite a few horrible things and the 'bad guys' can be interpreted more sympathetically and/or positively than they were.

[Laurentian]

Not deflecting.

Gradius wondered about how mass genocide being evil is debatable yet your response was to talk about Tassadar, rather than addressing his point.

Also I should point that Although Blizzard has interpreted the story with a right-and-wrong, good-and-evil morality

Which is what they were always doing, not something they started in SC2. Notice that his line of discussion started because another poster disagreed with my statement that Rebel Yell was about overthrowing an oppressive government in favour of another when that was clearly what the writers of SC1intended.

(through emphasis of certain events, de-emphasis in some and deflection of responsibility in others), the actual events, when viewed through an objective lens, are much more ambiguous. The 'good guys' do quite a few horrible things and the 'bad guys' can be interpreted more sympathetically and/or positively than they were.

Eh, nothing new. I could go on to Star Wars forums and see people argue about the Galactic Empire not being so bad. Or Ringers arguing about how Sauron has been given a bad rap.

I could write about how the Dark Voice is not really a bad guy in SC2 since he is going to end all war and suffering by killing everyone. Hell they might actually give him this motivation. However I wouldn't say this would make him a not so bad guy.

Anyway I disagree with your view that Mengsk should not be viewed as an villian. I don't see how Mengsk committing genocide for the greater good and using tu quoque arguments in his defense is not evil when people who have actually committed genocide....were doing it for the greater good and used tu quoque arguments in their defense!

[Turalyon]

Hmmm, I don't think the debate about Mengsk should be about good or evil as it really is pretty straightforward (he is evil).

I think it'd be much more complex to decide whether SC1's Mengsk was more of an egoist or utilitarian (not in BW or SC2 as it becomes quite evident he's an egoist). They both go hand-in-hand/ are related but either position alone can be more readily defensible (using SC1 only as a reference point that is) than arguing strictly good or evil.

[mr. peasant]

Gradius wondered about how mass genocide being evil is debatable yet your response was to talk about Tassadar, rather than addressing his point.

As I originally outlined, the Zerg didn't massacre the Terrans on Chau Sara and Mar Sara but rather, it was the actions of the Protoss.

Which is what they were always doing, not something they started in SC2.

Never said they weren't. In my opening post, I explicitly said that Blizzard's writers interpret Starcraft rather black-and-white-ly even though what was actually written was much greyer.

Anyway I disagree with your view that Mengsk should not be viewed as an villian. I don't see how Mengsk committing genocide for the greater good and using tu quoque arguments in his defense is not evil when people who have actually committed genocide....were doing it for the greater good and used tu quoque arguments in their defense!

It could be argued that allowing the civil war to continue during an alien invasion would have resulted in even more deaths. As such, a decisive action such as completely wiping out the Confederate leadership and swiftly bringing an end to it might have saved the entire Terran race from extinction. Was committing genocide in order to accomplish said goal over-the-top? Certainly, which is why only an insane person would see Mengsk as a good guy. Yes, the massacre at Tarsonis was an evil act. However, you can't take a single act and define a person solely by that act alone. You have to take everything about that person into consideration.

I could write about how the Dark Voice is not really a bad guy in SC2 since he is going to end all war and suffering by killing everyone. Hell they might actually give him this motivation. However I wouldn't say this would make him a not so bad guy.

That comparison doesn't work since the logic behind it does not compute. The point of ending war and suffering is because it saves lives and improves the quality of life of people. Killing everyone to achieve it would not lead to this outcome.

[Laurentian]

It could be argued that allowing the civil war to continue during an alien invasion would have resulted in even more deaths.

You mean the civil war that he was responsible for? And the alien invasion that he helped spread as part of that civil war?

That comparison doesn't work since the logic behind it does not compute.

Really? You just argued that "genocide saves lives" yet your questioning the logic behind "killing everyone ends war and suffering"?

The point of ending war and suffering is because it saves lives and improves the quality of life of people. Killing everyone to achieve it would not lead to this outcome.

It could be argued that life is hopeless and pointless and full of suffering so everyone would be better off dead since you can't suffer anymore when your're dead. And there can't be any more war if there is nobody around to fight one another. It would prevent more deaths after all since once everyone is dead there can't be any more people dying.

[mr. peasant]

You mean the civil war that he was responsible for? And the alien invasion that he helped spread as part of that civil war?

Which he started before aliens started showing up. The only time he manipulated the Zerg, he ended the war. And before you mention 'why not form an alliance?', there's no evidence that such an option was on the table. We never meet any Confederate representatives (aside from Duke who joined Mengsk) and we never see signs that the Confederates actively fought the Zerg.

Really? You just argued that "genocide saves lives" yet your questioning the logic behind "killing everyone ends war and suffering"?

Sacrifice millions to save billions. Better to lose some than to lose all. Case in point; the atomic bombs used during World War II. 'Evil' act but neither Truman nor the United States are evil.

It would prevent more deaths after all since once everyone is dead there can't be any more people dying.

If you're going to count one longitudinally, you have to count both longitudinally. Meaning, killing everyone also kills all their descendents as much as allowing people to live dooms their descendents to eventually die.




I think at this point, especially since this is the internet, we have reached an impasse. I have explained my opinion to the best of my ability and I see no benefit in continuing this debate. If you still disagree with me, let's just agree to disagree. Thank you.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming: How did they screw up the single player that bad?

[Gradius]

Think about it carefully - who exactly did the mass killing? The Zerg infested small subsections of the populations of Chau Sara and Mar Sara (case in point, none of Raynor's militia were infested and the Infested Command Centre was the first time they encountered such a phenomenon). The only times when the Zerg were explicitly stated as killing en masse was when they were manipulated by the Psi Emitters.

The Zerg did the killing, but according to you the Zerg aren't even evil, and are just trying to survive. Mengsk knew that setting the Psi Emitters on Tarsonis would kill millions of innocent people. He didn't regret his actions or contemplate another way to achieve his goal (unlike Tassadar). He was apathetic to the deaths of millions of people, and for all we know only got joy out of finally getting his revenge. He also unnecessarily abandoned Kerrigan for having a moral compass & questioning him. I don't use the word evil lightly, but I'm pretty sure all that makes him evil.

Kerrigan was surprised that Duke activated Psi Emitters on Tarsonis in the first place. The big push mission where they assault Tarsonis's platforms was supposed to be their "final strike" against "the confederacy's most potent defenses". I always had the impression they could have won without resorting to emitters, which was confirmed in I, Mengsk when he said "I can raise an army greater than anything the confederacy can wield".