More air play?

[DemolitionSquid]

Stalker/Archon isn't a build I've ever heard of in PvP.
Anyway, I'm curious as to just how early your expo is. If you put it down, once you scout the archon build, I don't see how it's " early ". Also, aren't archons the hard counter to both zealots AND sentries? Considering they deal extra damage to Zealots and nullify FF's. I have a hard time seeing how you can hold off a 1 base push, while expanding, if you only rely on sentries and chargelots.

I'm curious of the following things :

Wouldn't a DT into archon/stalker build destroy you? It seems that you skip the robo, so do you get a forge for detection?

Do you transition into carriers off 2 bases? Until you get 2+ carriers, wouldn't you be vulnerable to a 2 base counter push?

What happens once your opponent scouts the Carriers? He can easily transition into void rays, which are far more mass-able that Carriers.

I would be interested in replays.

Stalker/Archon is build I see in games against my friends that they use in ladder, it started gaining weight once Archons became massive. Its actually very strong, as the Templar can storm then become Archons to tank like Zealots normally would. Its a lean, focused build - Day9 would approve I'm sure. Anyway, I was having a hard time countering it, and at the same time I was trying to find a purpose for Carriers. So the two trains of thought came together - if Archon/Stalker is beating the standard PvP Colossus/Stalker ball, what can I do? Answer - Zealot/Carrier. Chargelots eat up Stalkers and are no gas. Carriers have range to pick off Archons and mobility to harrass. It was very simple.

You're ultimately misunderstanding my last post.

1. The early expo is taken early, regardless of their build. Its standard.

2. Yes, Archons counter Zealots, but that's what the fast Carriers are for - sniping Archons and Templar from afar, more effectively than Colossi can. Carriers also immune to Feedback, Storm.

3. Stalker/Archon is not a 1 base play. Most Templar based builds require an expo, so ultimately there's no reason not to take your own.

4. Forge and Cannons for detection, yes. You use the Forge later anyway for Zealot upgrades. Once you do get a Robo (and you will) its for Observers so you can move about the map, and Immortals who crush Stalkers, tank Archons, and benefit from the Forge upgrades you got for your Zealots. What the benefit of the early Carriers is, they fly. DT's can't hit them. So you retain some map control with the Carriers, as you would with Phoenix. But where Phoenix cannot harrass a probe line full of Stalkers, Carriers can.

5. There is no transition into Carriers. Carriers are the goal. 2 Gateway, 1 Stargate, Expo. Use first Phoenix to scout. If Stalker/Archon, equal number of Stargate/Gateway from there. Ex. If standard off two base is 7 Warpgate, go 3 Warp/3 Star/1 Robo. Pump Zealots, Carriers, occasional Sentries, Observers, Immortals. If NOT Stalker/Archon, proceed into normal Void Ray/Phoenix play. By using the Phoenix to scout, he'll know you have a Stargate but not Carriers, and will prep for Void Ray/Phoenix, not Carriers. Minor element of surprise available.

[Gradius]

I disagree. Stargate openings are becoming increasingly popular in PvZ, mainly because of the map control it gives you.

Stargate openings are very popular, but late-game I'd rather have stalkers than phoenix, as phoenix get eaten alive by muta splash and basically everything else. If you go up against a Zerg who can rush to mutas safely, stargate openers would be a bad response. Luckily Zerg mostly can't rush to mutas safely without dieing to 7 gate.

Imo, mutalisks aren't very useful in ZvP, since probes are the only unit in the P arsenal that muta's are actually good against ; ). Unless the mutas catch you by surprise, you have ample time to prepare for them, once you scout the spire and/or mutas.
I feel like, if the zerg plays greedy and goes for fast mutas, he'll die to a 6 gate push ( Very common these days ). Especially if the P went for a stargate into 6 gate opening.
Lategame, they might be useful for denying expo's etc. but in a straight up 200/200 battle, they only take up important supply.

Leaving yourself vulnerable to 6 gate by rushing to mutas is not "good usage". I'm talking about mutas on 3 bases, or on maps like shakuras where Zerg can wall off 2 bases with mass spines, catz style. I've also seen Losira manhandle Protoss with muta/ling b/c of its mobility. The point of muta/ling is to have the game basically won by the time the 200/200 fight comes.

[RamiZ]

Leaving yourself vulnerable to 6 gate by rushing to mutas is not "good usage". I'm talking about mutas on 3 bases, or on maps like shakuras where Zerg can wall off 2 bases with mass spines, catz style. I've also seen Losira manhandle Protoss with muta/ling b/c of its mobility. The point of muta/ling is to have the game basically won by the time the 200/200 fight comes.

Exactly. I also love LosirA's Muta switch style, going for mass Roach/Ling/Hydras, and when enemy make 4-5 Colossi, and lack the good amount of Stalkers, he switch to Mutas, and make 20+ of them vs. yours 10+ Stalkers. You can't do much then.

I don't know how can people think that Mutas aren't good in ZvP, they are great, in fact, Protoss has a lot less counters to Mutas than Terran. When you get critical mass of Mutas, around 30 with 2-0 upgrades, you can't take them down with Phoenixes and Stalkers anymore, and you need High Templars and/or Archons, and both of those units are pretty slow, you still can go from base to base and keep wreaking havoc.

[Peanutbutter]

Stalker/Archon is build I see in games against my friends that they use in ladder, it started gaining weight once Archons became massive. Its actually very strong, as the Templar can storm then become Archons to tank like Zealots normally would. Its a lean, focused build - Day9 would approve I'm sure. Anyway, I was having a hard time countering it, and at the same time I was trying to find a purpose for Carriers. So the two trains of thought came together - if Archon/Stalker is beating the standard PvP Colossus/Stalker ball, what can I do? Answer - Zealot/Carrier. Chargelots eat up Stalkers and are no gas. Carriers have range to pick off Archons and mobility to harrass. It was very simple.

I wouldn't really say that Archon/Stalker beats the standard Colossus deathball. If you go archons, you will need void rays as well in the late game.

I think that the main reason that Archons have become popular in PvP, is because once your opponent goes for one base colossi ( The most common build ), he will only have just enough gas to produce colossi, meaning that the rest of his resource will go into zealots.

You're ultimately misunderstanding my last post.

1. The early expo is taken early, regardless of their build. Its standard.

Yeah. No. Once your opponent scouts your expansion, he will most likely go for either an all in or expand himself. Even if he expands, and goes Archon/Stalker, he can hit decent timing ( Even more so if you go for fast Carriers ) where you simply don't have enough Carriers to defend.

I can see how Carriers might be effective, if you use the offensively, since you can really abuse their range. But used in for a defensive purpose, it's a whole different story.

2. Yes, Archons counter Zealots, but that's what the fast Carriers are for - sniping Archons and Templar from afar, more effectively than Colossi can. Carriers also immune to Feedback, Storm.

Carriers are not immune to Storm. Far from it. It actually softens them up quite a bit, since they are so big and slow.
I can see how sniping templars etc. might work, but how do you deal with the blink stalkers? Once you lose your Carriers, its basically game over, since they take so long to reproduce.

3. Stalker/Archon is not a 1 base play. Most Templar based builds require an expo, so ultimately there's no reason not to take your own.

Actually, PvP is all about one basing, given how risky it is to take an early expansion. There will most like be somewhat of a fight, before either of the players decide to take an expansion.

4. Forge and Cannons for detection, yes. You use the Forge later anyway for Zealot upgrades. Once you do get a Robo (and you will) its for Observers so you can move about the map, and Immortals who crush Stalkers, tank Archons, and benefit from the Forge upgrades you got for your Zealots. What the benefit of the early Carriers is, they fly. DT's can't hit them. So you retain some map control with the Carriers, as you would with Phoenix. But where Phoenix cannot harrass a probe line full of Stalkers, Carriers can.

If your opponent goes for a 2 base stalker/Archon build, I doubt you'll have enough resource to support a forge, robo, and stargates producing carriers. And if you go Stargate first, you'll lose to any form of DT into Archon build.

About Carriers being good at harassing mineral lines, it all basically comes down to the map. Depends a lot on your main/natural etc. I feel like blink stalkers might negate the carrier harassment completely.

5. There is no transition into Carriers. Carriers are the goal. 2 Gateway, 1 Stargate, Expo. Use first Phoenix to scout. If Stalker/Archon, equal number of Stargate/Gateway from there. Ex. If standard off two base is 7 Warpgate, go 3 Warp/3 Star/1 Robo. Pump Zealots, Carriers, occasional Sentries, Observers, Immortals. If NOT Stalker/Archon, proceed into normal Void Ray/Phoenix play. By using the Phoenix to scout, he'll know you have a Stargate but not Carriers, and will prep for Void Ray/Phoenix, not Carriers. Minor element of surprise available.

Good luck supporting 3 WG's/3 Stargates/1 Robo off 2 bases. I doubt you can even constantly produce Carriers from 3 stargates with 2 bases.

Your opponent will mostly like poke in at your base from time to time, forcing you to reveal the Carriers sooner or later, giving him ample time to produce voidrays, which counter every unit in your army comp...

Stargate openings are very popular, but late-game I'd rather have stalkers than phoenix, as phoenix get eaten alive by muta splash and basically everything else. If you go up against a Zerg who can rush to mutas safely, stargate openers would be a bad response. Luckily Zerg mostly can't rush to mutas safely without dieing to 7 gate.

Leaving yourself vulnerable to 6 gate by rushing to mutas is not "good usage". I'm talking about mutas on 3 bases, or on maps like shakuras where Zerg can wall off 2 bases with mass spines, catz style. I've also seen Losira manhandle Protoss with muta/ling b/c of its mobility. The point of muta/ling is to have the game basically won by the time the 200/200 fight comes.

Interesting. The only time I've lost to muta/ling and bling ( Occasionally ), was when I was massively behind in bases or simply out macroed. It seems I need to watch those Losira games.

As for Muta's vs Phonixes, I see how it can be a bit problematic to match the zergs ability to produce Mutas really fast, while you need to invest in a few stargates to match his production. But still, Phoenix beat Mutas handily in equal numbers. They do cost 50 more minerals though : (

[Twilice]

But it works wonders, you start with mass zergling/roach all of them with their speed upgrades of course. And then when you have +1 base you clash and rebuild mass mutalisk instead of your "normal" army.

[RamiZ]

Interesting. The only time I've lost to muta/ling and bling ( Occasionally ), was when I was massively behind in bases or simply out macroed. It seems I need to watch those Losira games.

http://gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/47840

This is the game I was talking about.

[DemolitionSquid]

I may need to re-emphasize this: my Zealot/Carrier strategy is air based, period. If you don't want to build Stargates (or Void Rays and Phoenix), then do not use my build, because in all likelihood you will be building Void Rays and Phoenix if he tries to counter the Carriers with air of his own. My Zealot/Carrier is not as rigid as you seem to think it is, because there's nothing stopping you from making the other Gateway and Stargate units if you so choose.

Yeah. No. Once your opponent scouts your expansion, he will most likely go for either an all in or expand himself. Even if he expands, and goes Archon/Stalker, he can hit decent timing ( Even more so if you go for fast Carriers ) where you simply don't have enough Carriers to defend.

When he attacks is kind of why you're producing Zealots/Sentries/Cannons. The Carriers aren't really for defense, but do extremely well from behind the safety of Force Fields.

I can see how Carriers might be effective, if you use the offensively, since you can really abuse their range. But used in for a defensive purpose, it's a whole different story.

Again, note the emphasis I put on "you MUST harass to justify the Carrier's cost." If you just defend with the Carriers, you will likely lose. The Carriers let you be aggressive.

Carriers are not immune to Storm. Far from it. It actually softens them up quite a bit, since they are so big and slow.
I can see how sniping templars etc. might work, but how do you deal with the blink stalkers? Once you lose your Carriers, its basically game over, since they take so long to reproduce.

By "immune" I meant that their long range makes it hard for Templar to get close enough to Storm them, and their high shields lets them shrug off a few Storms better than units with lower HP. The Blink Stalkers are dealt with by staying over gullies where the Stalkers can't Blink, and keeping Zealots with the Carrier (Chargelots chew through Stalkers).

Actually, PvP is all about one basing, given how risky it is to take an early expansion. There will most like be somewhat of a fight, before either of the players decide to take an expansion.

Please try to follow my logic instead of just stating standard play and dismissing my claims. Notice my build has a Stargate and Phoenix to scout regardless of whether you eventually go Carrier or not. Whether you go Carrier depends on what the Phoenix scout sees. If he's going hard one base, then pump Void Rays instead of Carriers. Or throw down more Gateways and build a few more Phoenix from the Stargate. However, if you see two base or Twilight Counsel play, you are free to start going Carrier. If you see him build his own Stargate to get Void Rays to counter your Carriers, stop building Carriers and get Void Rays of your own. Use the extra resources you saved to get Stalkers instead of Zealots. This build is FLEXIBLE.

If your opponent goes for a 2 base stalker/Archon build, I doubt you'll have enough resource to support a forge, robo, and stargates producing carriers.

Good luck supporting 3 WG's/3 Stargates/1 Robo off 2 bases. I doubt you can even constantly produce Carriers from 3 Stargates with 2 bases.

Because Carriers take so long to produce, and you're only really building Zealots from your Gateways, its feasible for any extra gas (and with 4 geysers there will be a little bit, 6 if you have the balls to expand again) to go to slowly getting out Observers and upgrading Ground Weapons. You want Ground Weapons for your Zealots to kill Stalkers faster, Interceptors are strong enough early game that you can upgrade Air Weapons later. You'll rarely be spending chronoboost on the Carriers (other than the first two or so), it goes toward Probes and the upgrades instead. You can also Chronoboost out Immortals if you see too many Stalkers, or you can cut Carriers to get Stalkers yourself instead of Zealots if you scout him going air to counter your Carriers. Both Immortals and Stalkers gain the benefit of the Ground Weapons upgrade you got for your Zealots.

3 Gate Zealot/3 Star Carrier/1 Robo Observer/Immortal is entirely doable on 2 base. The idea that you must constantly be producing from all 7 structures is wrong, as is the idea you must stick to only Zealots and Carriers. If they were all Warp-gates, then yes it would be silly to, for example, build 9 when you could only support 6. But because you're utilizing all three tech trees it is common to switch focus based on whats needed at the time. It would be the same as making a round of 7 Zealots, then a round of 7 Stalkers. You felt one unit was more important to have first, or it fit your current economic situation better. For example, if you had just been attacked by mass Templar with no Stalkers and lost Probes, I would not expect you to continue supporting Carriers. You'd temporarily drop the Carriers and pump the cheaper Phoenix and Stalkers to hunt down those Templar and make a quick counter attack.

And if you go Stargate first, you'll lose to any form of DT into Archon build.

Your fear of DT's is irrational. DT are high tech, they require time to reach. The Forge you're getting for the Ground Weapons upgrade anyway lets you build cannons. The early Phoenix will let you scout if he's going DT. If hes using those DT not to attack, but to create Archons instead of HT, there's literally no change you need to make in your build. If anything, subsequent Carriers will become more powerful as there will be no Storm. Zealots are also not as fragile as Marines and Zerglings and fair reasonably well against Archons if you cannot snipe them in time with your Carriers. Zealots will also hurt his DT's, surrounding them effectively and for a far cheaper cost. I ultimately think you're underestimating the power of Zealots because you're used to seeing them vaporized by Colossi. The point here is, the build you're countering does not use Colossi.

About Carriers being good at harassing mineral lines, it all basically comes down to the map. Depends a lot on your main/natural etc. I feel like blink stalkers might negate the carrier harassment completely.

If you cannot make use of gullies on a map, then you cannot use this build on that map. I have never stated otherwise, and have made it clear multiple times you must use good positioning to avoid Stalker Blink fire.

Your opponent will mostly like poke in at your base from time to time, forcing you to reveal the Carriers sooner or later, giving him ample time to produce voidrays, which counter every unit in your army comp...

He can't magically make Void Rays instantly once he sees your Carriers. He has to build his own Stargate, then his own Void Rays. It takes TIME. Your early Phoenix Scout dictates your play. If you see him making 3 Gate, then you go Carrier. If you seem him with a Stargate of his own, then you don't go Carrier. Its not a hard concept to follow. If he spots your Stargate(s) later and starts building his own to get Void Rays, he'll be behind you in air numbers, air tech, and you'll know immediately because you built a Phoenix scout. When he sees your Phoenix, he'll know you have a Stargate... and nothing else. Until he sees Carriers, he can't react to Carriers. You must take build time into account. Also, yes, Void rays counter Carrier/Zealot. Except you'll see him get his Stargate to counter your Carriers, giving you (surprise!) time to stop Carrier and Zealot production to build Phoenix/Void Ray and Stalkers to counter his Void Rays.

You seem to think this build leaves you helpless. IT DOES NOT.

[TheEconomist]

I have a brain-shit strategy that I think is cool but haven't tested. I'll share it with you anyways.

Silver League =/= Master League

[DemolitionSquid]

Silver League =/= Master League

Did I say this was a master-league build viable on ladder? NO.

Did I say it countered a specific strategy used by my friends in for-fun games? Yes.

The thread is about air play. I posted a strategy that uses air play, specifically Carriers. Maybe the build isn't entirely viable on ladder, but the thought processes behind it are sound, and through my own experience I have gained a better understanding of how to effectively use Carriers which I am attempting to share with the community.

Apparently SC:L is now TL, full of elitists who ignore any insight that's not certified by Tastetosis.

[Carsickness]

So i've really being trying put my air into my strategy lately and found that going air , specifically pheonix', in a PvP works really well!
Here's a recent replay:
Attachment 1909

It counters the 4-gate perfectly!
Cause nothing pisses me off like a damn 4-gate

When he sees your Phoenix, he'll know you have a Stargate... and nothing else. Until he sees Carriers, he can't react to Carriers.

Or even better get hallucination and send that pheonix in. That'll fake him out even more and give you even more time for Carriers...hmmmm

I think what it would all boil down to is how fast you can get Carriers compaired to their Collosi. Players tend to automatically go a Collosi build when in the blind.
Maybe stay defensive on 2-base with cannons and wait until he comes to you?
Gonna have to try that one time.

Did
Apparently SC:L is now TL, full of elitists who ignore any insight that's not certified by Tastetosis.

Agreed