"Fix" Game Speeds in HoTS & LoTV

[Arkalis]

Slower speed option = good

Multiple speed options = useless

[Grrblt]

Having multiple speeds isn't so bad, so long as the "normal" game speed is indeed called Normal. I don't want to have to add 40% to the APM counter when watching GSL casts and I want "overlord scout after 7 minutes" to mean overlord scout after 7 minutes. It's not a big deal but it's ugly.

Custom games shouldn't realistically need a lower game speed setting, since they can internally change all the move, build and attack speeds to make a slower gameplay.

[Twilice]

You know the speed settings can be changed in game, I can see potential use of it in a custom map. (like a global time slow! That would be pretty awesome)

The only thing I disagree with is that "faster" is standard instead of normal.

[Peanutbutter]

“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” – Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Not sure if srs?

Pretty much every map on the first 5 pages of the most popular list is on the faster game speed. You suggest keeping a feature that causes problems for people because.....it's there and somebody might use it? Just sounds absurd to me.

I think it's absurd to remove a feature, just because it causes some minor problems for a few people. I think that the number of people using the feature, is far greater than the number of people having problems with it.

Personally, it has never bothered me.

Alright, in that case I think wanting to keep a feature that causes problems for people, at least in its current incarnation, makes you look like a moron.

Let's keep this discussion constructive. I'm sorry for calling you a douche, I couldn't find a word that fit better at the time.

Sure, it would be completely idiotic to keep this feature, if all it did was cause problems. But, as I said above " I think that the number of people using the feature, is far greater than the number of people having problems with it. "

Have you ever trained for anything? You want to maximize intensity during training so that when it comes time to compete, it's easy. But for someone brand new, training at speeds slower or faster than those on the ladder are both worthless IMO.

I disagree here. Just because someone is playing 1v1 games, doesn't mean that the person is training for the ladder. I know of at least a few people that enjoy the game at a less " intense " level, by decreasing the game speed.

[Lupino]

Rarely have I seen someone arguing to give players fewer choices about how to play a game. It reminds me of the old MBS and auto-mine arguments of ye olde days.

The speed at which you can play the game: a relic from SC1 that had no reason to be in this game. Who honestly plays on different speeds? And what's with those maps in the custom games list that don't play at fastest?

Newbies who are learning the game and casual players who enjoy a more measured pace of playing, perhaps?

1) There will be no more measuring things in "units of game time," which is absurd. The timer will tick at the real time, and when somebody says a probe "takes 17 seconds to build", it will actually be true.

Every other unit of measurement in the game is presented in abstract terms, so I'm not sure why you're so up in arms about game time being similarly valued.

2) Real APM will equal in-game APM, and there won't be any more confusion about these two.

Casual gamers (i.e. the vast majority of people who bought SC2) couldn't give two shits about APM. The only people who really care are the very few professional paid players and the thousands of pretenders, and they already know the difference.

3) You won't have to set the game speed of the campaign or some custom map that you try to "fastest" before you start playing. Halfway thru the campaign it turns out I was only playing at "fast".

Why wouldn't you check your game settings before starting a game? Especially when you first buy a game, going through audio/video/game settings to optimize the experience is one of the first things you ought to do. Next time be a bit more thorough?

To be blunt this is a pretty silly argument, on the level of arguing difficulty settings should be removed so that a game can only be played on "Hardcore." A game is successful in part because it can appeal to a large audience, and one way of ensuring this is allowing different people to play the game in different ways, or the same person to experience the game in different ways. Not everyone wants to play an RTS at blinding fast speeds all the time, so having "Slow, Normal, Fast" options allows for this.

And, most importantly, no one is forcing you to play at these slower speeds, so you are not being "harmed" in any way by their inclusion. You will "harm" other people who do enjoy playing at different speed settings if you remove this option, so the reason why they won't be removed is pretty straight-forward.

[Peanutbutter]

@Lupino

This explains it perfectly.
How I wish I could express myself in english as well as you do.

[Gradius]

I think it's absurd to remove a feature, just because it causes some minor problems for a few people.

Removing the "feature" was just a suggestion to improve the game, but all I really want is for 1 sec to = 1 sec and the normal speed on ladder to actually be the default speed. I said I'd be fine with modifying the feature to only have 2 or 3 speeds in my second post, so I'm not sure why everyone is still going on about me wanting to remove the feature.

Not sure if srs?

Yes totally srs. Removing the feature and sticking it into custom maps where it belongs is not taking away from anybody's experience and is still better than not changing it at all. Same reason why Blizzard didn't add more scenes onto the Prophecy cinematic even though they had them prepared.

I think that the number of people using the feature, is far greater than the number of people having problems with it.

There's really no evidence for that, but there is evidence that few people play on these slow maps. The "slow" versions of maps completely fell off the popular game rating after people stopped accidentally clicking on them when they were added (at least on NA). You also have to keep in mind peoples' experiences are different from yours. I mentioned I didn't know anybody who played at other speeds, and it would have been great if you could have chimed in with your experiences instead of attacking me for wanting to remove a feature.

Rarely have I seen someone arguing to give players fewer choices about how to play a game.

Newbies who are learning the game and casual players who enjoy a more measured pace of playing, perhaps?

I suggested adding the feature to the editor but removing it from a spot where it can cause problems (like when you have people create slow games because they forgot to change the setting from last game). It can be kept in the campaign since it's already there, but the default speed should be the fastest if they're going to make the option hard to find.

Every other unit of measurement in the game is presented in abstract terms, so I'm not sure why you're so up in arms about game time being similarly valued.

You don't understand why it would be nice to use a standardized unit of time that everyone is familiar with instead of arbitrary units of game time? Really? It's almost like you decided beforehand that you were going to attempt to rebut each and every one of my points.

Casual gamers (i.e. the vast majority of people who bought SC2) couldn't give two shits about APM. The only people who really care are the very few professional paid players and the thousands of pretenders, and they already know the difference.

1) You're saying the problems created for the professional players don't matter?
2) Who says casual gamers don't care about APM? For those who don't spam it's a decent measurement of multitasking ability.

Why wouldn't you check your game settings before starting a game? Especially when you first buy a game, going through audio/video/game settings to optimize the experience is one of the first things you ought to do. Next time be a bit more thorough?

Mind your own business? I did set the settings before I played, but the game speed option only appears in-mission, hidden away in the gameplay tab, and I just wanted to play. I actually discovered this option from someone else who got screwed over by it.

[Peanutbutter]

Removing the "feature" was just a suggestion to improve the game, but all I really want is for 1 sec to = 1 sec and the normal speed on ladder to actually be the default speed. I said I'd be fine with modifying the feature to only have 2 or 3 speeds in my second post, so I'm not sure why everyone is still going on about me wanting to remove the
feature.

I'd be totally fine, if they changed it so that 1 ingame sex = 1 sec. I don't see the reason for having 2-3 speeds, instead of just leaving it be as it is right now.

Yes totally srs. Removing the feature and sticking it into custom maps where it belongs is not taking away from anybody's experience and is still better than not changing it at all. Same reason why Blizzard didn't add more scenes onto the Prophecy cinematic even though they had them prepared.

I don't think that you're in a position to decide whether removing the feature will take anything away from someones playing experience or not.

There's really no evidence for that, but there is evidence that few people play on these slow maps. The "slow" versions of maps completely fell off the popular game rating after people stopped accidentally clicking on them when they were added (at least on NA). You also have to keep in mind peoples' experiences are different from yours. I mentioned I didn't know anybody who played at other speeds, and it would have been great if you could have chimed in with your experiences instead of attacking me for wanting to remove a feature.

Just because the slow versions of the map fell off the popular games tab, doesn't mean that people don't play at slower speeds. AFAIK, games in the practice league are played at " normal " speed.
I don't have access to SC2 right now, but IIRC you can check how many games were played on any custom map within the last hour. I'd be curious to know how many games were played, on maps with different game speeds.

Oh, and I did chime in with my experiences.

I know of at least a few people that enjoy the game at a less " intense " level, by decreasing the game speed.

[Lupino]

Removing the "feature" was just a suggestion to improve the game, but all I really want is for 1 sec to = 1 sec and the normal speed on ladder to actually be the default speed. I said I'd be fine with modifying the feature to only have 2 or 3 speeds in my second post, so I'm not sure why everyone is still going on about me wanting to remove the feature.

Because you say you want to remove the feature, and the title of the thread is "Remove Game Speeds in HotS & LotV", ergo the confusion...I suppose.

I suggested adding the feature to the editor but removing it from a spot where it can cause problems (like when you have people create slow games because they forgot to change the setting from last game). It can be kept in the campaign since it's already there, but the default speed should be the fastest if they're going to make the option hard to find.

I would hardly call it hard to find, and I see no reason why fastest should be default. So what if people forget to change the setting from last game, this problem is so minor that it doesn't really warrant the much larger headache of removing the option altogether.

You don't understand why it would be nice to use a standardized unit of time that everyone is familiar with instead of arbitrary units of game time? Really? It's almost like you decided beforehand that you were going to attempt to rebut each and every one of my points.

Since you put your argument by point, I figured answering them by point would be appropriate, but there already is a standardized unit of time. The difference is that this standard changes by speed setting. Which only really matters if you are changing between speed settings frequently. Otherwise if you're talking to someone about build orders or whatnot, talking in terms of "in-game time" is sufficient to get your point across and be applicable for people playing regardless of what speed settings they use.

1) You're saying the problems created for the professional players don't matter?
2) Who says casual gamers don't care about APM? For those who don't spam it's a decent measurement of multitasking ability.

Yes, because professional paid players are such a small share of SC2 buyers as to be insignificant in terms of numbers. They also invest the most time into this game, and so are better able to respond to changes in the game, etc. Casual players, by their very definition, care a lot less about APM than paid or "pro" players, so it would be very low on the totem pole of things to be changed to make the game better.

Mind your own business? I did set the settings before I played, but the game speed option only appears in-mission, hidden away in the gameplay tab, and I just wanted to play. I actually discovered this option from someone else who got screwed over by it.

You make it sound as if your experience in playing the game irreparably harmed by accidentally playing at a slower pace. I once started playing Halo 3 on normal difficulty for the first few levels by accident, but besides wondering why the enemies were dying so easily I just went into the menu and changed it to a higher setting. I didn't jump on Bungie's message board and say we should remove difficulty levels or make Heroic the default setting.

[Gradius]

Again, APM, spell durations, the in-game clock and build times are all out of whack because of this stupid system. What about a 20 minute game that is only 14 minutes? It's just dumb. If people don't think that this is important enough to change I can't really convince anybody. The game speeds don't have to be removed, I only suggested it because it seemed like the simplest solution for Blizzard to implement and one that de-cluttered the game by removing a feature I thought nobody used. How is having five different speeds good game design? Especially when the normal setting happens to be the one nobody uses.

On an unrelated note, this is by far the most inconsequential topic I've ever argued about. :P

Oh, and I did chime in with my experiences.

Alright, when I said "Who honestly plays on different speeds?" do you think it was meant to be rhetorical or something? I thought it was clear I didn't know anybody who used this feature, yet you were mainly more interested in calling me a douche than in helping find a better solution or bringing new info to the table.

Just because the slow versions of the map fell off the popular games tab, doesn't mean that people don't play at slower speeds. AFAIK, games in the practice league are played at " normal " speed.
I don't have access to SC2 right now, but IIRC you can check how many games were played on any custom map within the last hour. I'd be curious to know how many games were played, on maps with different game speeds.

Yes I've already looked at that and mentioned it repeatedly throughout this thread:

"The "slow" versions of maps completely fell off the popular game rating after people stopped accidentally clicking on them when they were added"

Christ it seems like you don't read anything I write.

Casual players, by their very definition, care a lot less about APM than paid or "pro" players, so it would be very low on the totem pole of things to be changed to make the game better.

Yes it would be low on the priority if you ignore all my other arguments. Can we stop it with this Bill O' Reilly crap of splicing my sentences and ignoring everything else? Facebook integration and new league icons were a low priority compared to things like chat channels but Blizzard added it anyway because it was easy to implement, so your argument isn't convincing either way.

You make it sound as if your experience in playing the game irreparably harmed by accidentally playing at a slower pace. I once started playing Halo 3 on normal difficulty for the first few levels by accident, but besides wondering why the enemies were dying so easily I just went into the menu and changed it to a higher setting. I didn't jump on Bungie's message board and say we should remove difficulty levels or make Heroic the default setting.

I always love non-starcraft strawman examples. Speeds are not really analogous to difficulty levels. That's what difficulty settings for missions are for, and SC2 requires much less mechanical skill than BW. It wasn't noticeable no, but bumping up the speed from fast to faster decreases the length of the campaign by 2-3 hours, if the campaign is say 15 hrs. I could have beat the campaign 2-3 hours faster, and this is important to me because it's time I could have saved.