New maps for Season 3 map pool

[HydraHydra]

i will not miss District 10... NEVER

[Wankey]

I agree with Wankey, possibly for the first time ever. :P But honestly the first "Normal map" is stupidly positionally imbalanced; it's impossible to take a gold when tanks can hit your mineral line from your opponent's main.

Kerrigan's Wrath actually seems like it might have some interesting attack paths and positioning, but gameplay on that map will basically revolve around breaking down the rocks to get into your opponent's base.

Shifted Sky is another one of those maps where securing a third base is similar to a bonus objective in a campaign mission, in that it's hard to do and will only make winning more difficult.

Even the "macro map" seems small. essentially, it gives you 3 bases instead of the standard 2 before taking another base becomes insane. It doesn't look that much better than their other recent "macro map:" Slag Pits.

At least they seem to know how to go about 2v2. I almost feel Blizzard spends more of their time playing 2v2 and up than 1v1. I do appreciate what they are doing by making more casual maps in 3v3 and 4v4, recognizing that their audience is very different than the audience for 1v1 maps. Now they just need to take the casual maps out of the 1v1 pool.

I think many people agree with me on many topics, just my delivery makes them think otherwise. I'm working on the delivery part.

The problem with Blizzard design is destructible rocks, this is one of the dumbest design ideas ever to come from the design team, but they're not willing to kill their children to they force it down people's throats.

Destructible rocks has done absolutely nothing to increase gameplay, it only forces to increase frustration, as you have ot keep scouting the destructible rock, when there are a million things going on. Everyone wants predictability in a fight, but when you get out flanked because they destroyed the rocks, it just feels ridiculously lame and counter to good gameplay.

I think a good idea is to make destructible rocks a global sound, if you hear rocks being destroyed, then it's a audible cue to tell you that something else is happening. Otherwise, I feel destructible rocks is incredibly unforgiving and really dumb design mechanic.

What the community has come up with which are far better solutions:

Using destructible rocks to surround rich minerals. That way you can still build your nexus / hatch but still have to destroy the rocks to kill it. This way it is *FAIR* to all races, unlike the current solution where it is only fair to Terran since they can move their command center.

Using destructible rocks to make chokes half sized, which I think is also good idea as well.

Too bad Blizzard has a bunch of numb skulls working there, sucks how bureaucracy has won over creativity.

[Blazur]

I'm getting tired of all these symmetrical maps. How about something asymmetrical? or something thats random and thrown together?

Amen to that. My favorite map in BW was Ghost Town. Symmetrical maps are so boring and lead to predictable play.

[RODTHEGOD]

You can't really have assymetrical maps. There would be all sorts of positional imbalances.

Oh come on. Thats like saying you can't have assymetrical races. At the very least blizzard should try. And I'm not even suggesting they be used for competitive areas. Blizzard could easily add a "silly map" area that people could play on, maps that aren't balanced, just for fun.

[Blazur]

I want them to add a random map which generates a new map each time you play it. Granted this won't be on ladder but it could be fun as hell for random custom play. Even better if they make it an obs map so people can witness the on-the-fly strategies.

[Todie]

Oh come on. Thats like saying you can't have assymetrical races. At the very least blizzard should try. And I'm not even suggesting they be used for competitive areas. Blizzard could easily add a "silly map" area that people could play on, maps that aren't balanced, just for fun.

there are a bunch of melee maps made by blizzard that arnt ladder, and they have better thigns to do atm. This is smething the comunity can do.

and i can only firmly disagree with wankey, not least on the matter of destructable rocks; the comunity that kept on creating competitive maps in sc/bw invented the concept and made 'everyone' realize destructible terrain makes maps more dynamic as it makes the terrain interactive.

[Gifted]

I have three or four thoughts on the matter based on what I've read:

1. "Dunno why they're bothering with seasons IMO"

Well, the seasons would make more sense if you remember the patch they wanted to release right away after release called the "tournament patch", where at the end of every season people could fight to become "Division champions". This patch kept getting pushed back as the community made it obvious that things like "Chatrooms" were more important.

I'm not saying this in a condencending way, just explaining why "seasons" should exist. At this point there is nothing to end a season other than statistics. I can see your point. But at least this should remind you (or others who look at your note and don't remember this) what the seasons were originally intended for.

2. Close Rush Distances again....

Even I don't have to write a wall of text to express that I'd like to see some more varied distances.

3. Destructable rocks have done nothing to increase gameplay, the community can do better.


Actually, the community was the one that created destructable rocks in SC:BW, it was just in the form of ion cannons or Xel'Naga Temples restricting places. So even this kinda supports your "lack of creativity" angle. ^^

Your suggestion of "surround areas with rocks will be fair" is actually unfair as the terran can just fly in, in many cases. I feel the most fair setup is an open area around the gold base, the destructable rock required to land and mine there. And all the area around the gold base is "unbuildable" in a way that allows a few base defenses but no space is large enough to land a hatch/nexus/cc there temporarily. This way you have to break the rocks for any of the three bases to actually mine there, but the unbuildable areas are in such a way that all three races can create an adequate defense.

4. The first 2v2 map makes me cringe a bit.

Compare attack paths attacks to and from the top right base based on it's ramp position. That is my preferred base by far as it puts the entry in the corner instead of the middle of the map. This is the type of "base imbalance" I cry about. Sometimes it adds variety to the gameplay, but in this case I simply see advantages to one spot over the rest. Personal thoughts at least.

5. Pie and Cake

I like pie. I like cake. Both are OP. We need more to keep us from being UP.

[Ghetto-blasteR]

Oh come on. Thats like saying you can't have assymetrical races. At the very least blizzard should try. And I'm not even suggesting they be used for competitive areas. Blizzard could easily add a "silly map" area that people could play on, maps that aren't balanced, just for fun.

agreed. it's easy to see why symmetrical maps are (more or less) positionally balanced, but that does not logically preclude every possible asymmetrical map from also being positionally balanced.

similarly, in a mirror match up, there is clearly no race advantage for either player. but in a non-mirror match up, a perfect game will still be balanced between asymmetrical races.

they should definitely make some "fun" asymmetrical maps which simulate real world battlefields a little better than the boring symmetrical stuff.

[Gradius]

but that does not logically preclude every possible asymmetrical map from also being positionally balanced.

Yes it does, and if it doesn't, then the so-called asymmetrical map would probably look nothing like what you guys have in mind. How can you justify having a cliff on one side of the map that makes it easier to push on, but not the other side?

Look at these positional imbalances on Scrap Station:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=155163

Even Scrap Station was not symmetrical enough to be a balanced map. They also probably haven't fixed that notch in the top left base that makes it extremely easy to cannon rush, though I haven't played on this map in forever. I'm all for having asymmetrical maps as a fun custom game, but the community can make those themselves IMO.

but in a non-mirror match up, a perfect game will still be balanced between asymmetrical races.

If the races aren't exactly the same, then it's imbalanced. A good game though will make it so that the vast majority of players can compensate for pretty much all of the imbalance by changing their play (like how it is now with 99% of the whiners in SC2). In SC, the races are the only thing that's variable, and everything else, including maps, is controlled. If you decide you want to make something else variable too, then balancing the game has just become an order of magnitude harder.

[RODTHEGOD]

Yes it does, and if it doesn't, then the so-called asymmetrical map would probably look nothing like what you guys have in mind. How can you justify having a cliff on one side of the map that makes it easier to push on, but not the other side?

Easy. It's called adapt or die. It's called having different weaknesses/strengths on different sides of the map that different players can exploit based on their current position. And I think you're still thinking in a symmetrical fashion based on the extreme example you gave below.

Look at these positional imbalances on Scrap Station:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=155163

Ok that is a rediculous example. You're saying that these maps aren't symmetrical enough? I mean come on a Starcraft player should be able to adapt to unforeseen problems. We aren't computers playing chess here where every possible move is known before the game starts. The best strategists have to make decisions based on imperfect information, in a non-ideal world, not "OH MY GOD, MY SPINE CRAWLER IS A FEW UNITS AWAY FROM WHERE I NEED IT TO ATTACK!!!! OH MY GOD!!! HOW UNFAIR!!! THE GAME IS OVER!!! I LOOSE!!! GAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!"

Even Scrap Station was not symmetrical enough to be a balanced map. They also probably haven't fixed that notch in the top left base that makes it extremely easy to cannon rush, though I haven't played on this map in forever. I'm all for having asymmetrical maps as a fun custom game, but the community can make those themselves IMO.

I'm curious how much that small imbalance effects the maps statistics. Probably very little. My guess would be 1% or less

If the races aren't exactly the same, then it's imbalanced. A good game though will make it so that the vast majority of players can compensate for pretty much all of the imbalance by changing their play (like how it is now with 99% of the whiners in SC2). In SC, the races are the only thing that's variable, and everything else, including maps, is controlled. If you decide you want to make something else variable too, then balancing the game has just become an order of magnitude harder.

Wait, what? "if the races aren't exactly the same, then it's not balanced?" That's retarded. How is it starcraft is known for its 3 distinct races and for their balance? If you look at the races and their statistics over enough games you can find some imbalances that could be fixed but I do think there is such thing as balanced enough. Loosing 1 game due to an imbalance after playing 200 games I'd say is pretty balanced.