Unit removals possible for HOTS

[Wankey]

"that's a fundamental design issue not a spell issue." - And part of the design is the reliance on the spell, in the same way Psionic Storm is a big part of protoss play. That's like saying that the Terran need to wall off their base means that supply depos shouldn't be able to lower anymore. I'll say it again, if you're having too many problems with force fields then bring massive units. Or, control your opponent better so you can pick the scene of the fights and thus can get into a position where force field is less effective.

That's such a crappy solution. Oh crap he used force fields. If you're having problems, stop gameplay, and tech up. There was no such problem in Starcraft 1. Gameplay never stopped because a spell caused it to stop. There was always a back and forth, back and forth.

SC2 seems to be always building for large ball battles, and then whoever wins that usually wins.

Furthermore, back and forth matches often happen in SC2 and they are exciting to watch until you immobilizing spells come into play and a massive army is incinerated with 2 clicks of fungal or force field. It's just not fun to watch or play.

It's frustrating gameplay at best, and it closes down options. For instance, you can easily cut a zerg army in half and destroy half of it at will without losing a single unit with force field. That's completely dictating the gameplay, I can do absolutely nothing about it except tech to MASSIVE units and considering for Zerg massive units take such a long time to get to.

How did SC1 users deal with early rushes? They didn't have force field.

[Gradius]

Zealot - nothing wrong with this unit at all. It's one of the most efficient offensive units in the game.

Observer - whatever ability is added, it better not hike up the price. I like the observer for what it is and wouldn't wish to see it go.

Phoenix - who cares that it can't directly attack ground? This is kind of an arbitrary complaint.

Force Fields - i agree with wankey. even though it's one of the most fun mechanics in the game, cowering in my base with FFs until i get to deathball is getting annoying. protoss have such crappy harass options and I wouldn't mind being able to step out onto the map before 175 food.

[Drake Clawfang]

Force Fields - i agree with wankey. even though it's one of the most fun mechanics in the game, cowering in my base with FFs until i get to deathball is getting annoying. protoss have such crappy harass options and I wouldn't mind being able to step out onto the map before 175 food.

Then the problem isn't the FF itself, it's making protoss more mobile so they don't feel they need to cower in their base, or don't want to. FF is only as annoying as how it's used, analyze how it's used and why and figure out what you can do with the protoss so that playstyle isn't as favored.

That's such a crappy solution. Oh crap he used force fields. If you're having problems, stop gameplay, and tech up. There was no such problem in Starcraft 1. Gameplay never stopped because a spell caused it to stop. There was always a back and forth, back and forth.

Dramatize much? You're right, that wasn't a problem in SC1 - welcome to SC2, a totally different game.

[JackhammerIV]

That's such a crappy solution. Oh crap he used force fields. If you're having problems, stop gameplay, and tech up. There was no such problem in Starcraft 1. Gameplay never stopped because a spell caused it to stop. There was always a back and forth, back and forth.

SC2 seems to be always building for large ball battles, and then whoever wins that usually wins.

Furthermore, back and forth matches often happen in SC2 and they are exciting to watch until you immobilizing spells come into play and a massive army is incinerated with 2 clicks of fungal or force field. It's just not fun to watch or play.

It's frustrating gameplay at best, and it closes down options. For instance, you can easily cut a zerg army in half and destroy half of it at will without losing a single unit with force field. That's completely dictating the gameplay, I can do absolutely nothing about it except tech to MASSIVE units and considering for Zerg massive units take such a long time to get to.

How did SC1 users deal with early rushes? They didn't have force field.

More about forcefields....seriously if they remove forcefield completely i wouldn't mind cos it means 4gate, 6 gate and any form of heavy gateway play will be massively buffed to account for the early game weakness of protoss units.

And zerg hates blink stalkers with upgrades in late game already. Imagine a buffed stalker given more HP and damage to account for no forcefields. And buffed sentries as well since their only use would be hallucination and guardian shield. Then zergs would be complaining protoss turns from a turtling style relying on FFs into a huge scary offensive deathball that can withstand their attacks easier and crush them easier.

SC2 only develops into "get a big ball of death and kill the other person" style gameplay because of player passivity. Look at MC vs Idra in MLG Columbus on Xel'Naga Caverns. Low tech, low economy, high aggression from both players.

Forcefields like fungals or any other spell in the game can hurt or help depending on what enemy units are affected. It's not as simple as you make it of "herp derp spam spam spells". Missing all sentries and HTs with the fungals and EMPs is not optimal. Forcefielding in front of the enemy army and having a high zealot count is bad. Forcefielding an army in half but wandering colossi forward to get sniped is bad.

Zerg players who after getting like 10 units forcefielded off still try to engage and have their army constantly compartmentalised and slowly picked off are basically bad. And obviously counter attacks, drops, burrow move roaches, nyduses and general terrain usage (flanking) are not options available to a zerg. They only have map control in ZvP most of the time.

TLDR: More zerg whining. A more sensible thing to ask is not to remove forcefields but instead...make drop tech cheaper and faster to get to, make hydras move faster, make roaches move faster when burrowed, buff the ultralisk.

[RODTHEGOD]

One thing that doesn't really have anything to do with specific units but more units in general is this ball thing. I hate it. I hate that most battles are determined by whoever has the better ball. It probably has to do with the way units will actually move out of the way of another unit. I don't want the balls of death anymore. I want frontlines. I definately think blizzard need to fix this.

[Gradius]

Then the problem isn't the FF itself, it's making protoss more mobile so they don't feel they need to cower in their base, or don't want to. FF is only as annoying as how it's used, analyze how it's used and why and figure out what you can do with the protoss so that playstyle isn't as favored.

What I can do is have higher APM and try to play like MC (i shot up to 100 one game when i'm normally 60 and I don't spam). But the problem is that gateway compositions are not as efficient as roaches/lings, hence force fields. And the problem with the protoss' harass options (DTs, blink stalks, phoenix) isn't mobility, but the fact that you lose if you don't do enough damage. You basically need to snipe their third if you don't want to play at a disadvantage. And idra already showed that 2 base zergs can fight 2 base protoss no problem. It's going to suck when every zerg starts blindly getting spore crawlers and learning to deal with all protoss harassment too. I'd like to be able to move out with a gateway combo without it being some all-in where i lose if my attack fails.

[DemolitionSquid]

Zealot - nothing wrong with this unit at all. It's one of the most efficient offensive units in the game.

Observer - whatever ability is added, it better not hike up the price. I like the observer for what it is and wouldn't wish to see it go.

Phoenix - who cares that it can't directly attack ground? This is kind of an arbitrary complaint.

I completely disagree. The Zealot and Observer are quite simply bland, and the Phoenix had no reason to ever exist. Oh, my beloved Corsair. *tear*

Force Fields - i agree with wankey. even though it's one of the most fun mechanics in the game, cowering in my base with FFs until i get to deathball is getting annoying. protoss have such crappy harass options and I wouldn't mind being able to step out onto the map before 175 food.

If you're cowering in your base behind the FF, the enemy is expanding, and you're still even. As you said, the Zealot, while boring, is a very good offensive unit and is the main reason the 4-gate is so strong. All those Sentries you're building early game for FF could be Zealots and Stalkers, with the extra gas going towards upgrades. There is nothing wrong with FF, there is something wrong with needless passivity.

[Gradius]

I completely disagree. The Zealot and Observer are quite simply bland, and the Phoenix had no reason to ever exist. Oh, my beloved Corsair.

The corsair couldn't attack ground either.

If you're cowering in your base behind the FF, the enemy is expanding, and you're still even. As you said, the Zealot, while boring, is a very good offensive unit and is the main reason the 4-gate is so strong. All those Sentries you're building early game for FF could be Zealots and Stalkers, with the extra gas going towards upgrades. There is nothing wrong with FF, there is something wrong with needless passivity.

It's not needless at all. I'd love to see anyone survive the losira timing push without force fields and not be screwed afterwards. Zerg can afford to attack/defend heavy pushes while still maintaining a high drone count and more expos.

[DemolitionSquid]

The corsair couldn't attack ground either.

In SC1 it was fine that the Corsair couldn't attack ground, because the other two races had units that couldn't either - the Devourer and the Valkyrie. In SC2 this is not the case, only the Protoss are gimped. That's not the point I was trying to make though, it was an afterthought >_<. The real point, is that there was no reason for Blizzard to create the Phoenix when the Corsair already did its job. Scrapping the Corsair for the Phoenix was a pointless move and a waste of time; they're basically the same damn unit.

It's not needless at all. I'd love to see anyone survive the losira timing push without force fields and not be screwed afterwards. Zerg can afford to attack/defend heavy pushes while still maintaining a high drone count and more expos.

I'll have to look up that rush, I'm far more familiar with IdrA and Nestea type Zergs.

[Drake Clawfang]

What I can do is have higher APM and try to play like MC (i shot up to 100 one game when i'm normally 60 and I don't spam). But the problem is that gateway compositions are not as efficient as roaches/lings, hence force fields. And the problem with the protoss' harass options (DTs, blink stalks, phoenix) isn't mobility, but the fact that you lose if you don't do enough damage. You basically need to snipe their third if you don't want to play at a disadvantage. And idra already showed that 2 base zergs can fight 2 base protoss no problem. It's going to suck when every zerg starts blindly getting spore crawlers and learning to deal with all protoss harassment too. I'd like to be able to move out with a gateway combo without it being some all-in where i lose if my attack fails.

Ah-ha, then instead of nerfing Force Field, we buff the gateway units a bit. And that opens up a larger variety of options. What if Stalkers were adjusted specifically? Say, higher damage but longer research time for Blink, and/or longer Blink cooldown? Slower build time in exchange for higher HP and shields?

The one thing I strongly disliked from Day 1 is two buildings for each type of Templar. Templar of either kind are already a heavy investment, making us wait to build a second building only hurts that. What if Templar went back to having one building so you could call them out sooner? Or, time for another wacky idea - Templar (of one kind or both) are moved down to require the Twilight Council, and the Templar building(s) offer their upgrades? Say, DT and HT can be built once you have the Twilight Council, but Psi Storm is still on the Templar Archives. Or, DT perma-cloak needs to be researched at the Dark Shrine, but they can be built without cloak with a Twilight Council. I'd say if that were the case their HP and shields could perhaps be buffed a bit. Archons in turn could require either a research from the TC, or require a Dark Shrine/Templar Archives to be done. The net result is Templar and Archons come out a bit sooner and thus the gateway force perhaps being a bit stronger.