Unit removals possible for HOTS

[viperjo]

The units annoy us because they suck. They're inflexible like the Reaper, or redundant like the Banshee, or straight up considered overpowered like the Marauder. The Carrier and Mothership are both utterly unneeded, and in this supposedly "new and improved" game both the Archon and Observer get not one new feature. Our gripes are not unreasoned nor unreasonable.

The units are annoying because they suck? Does every unit have to be a general purpose do-all? What is the banshee redundant with? A thor? Tanks? Ghosts? What makes the marauder overpowered, stim? What do you expect to see added to the observer or archon? Of all the units in the game, you want to change the observer.

There's no reason behind any of these. Just aimless gripes.

[mr. peasant]

When we asked that to Dustin regarding scraping units he hinted at the Overseer. This unit could get scrapped. The corrupter is also a strong candidate.

He also mentioned the problem was that this unit costed no supply. So you could have 100 overseers in addition to your army. So I think if they gave this unit a mild attack and the ability to contaminate defenses at the cost of 2 supply that would be good.

Regarding their intent to scrap units, I have my doubts. Despite all the talk about competitive play and what not, the majority of players are consumers in mentality. They would not want to pay more money for less stuff. Rather, I suspect lackluster units will be tweaked and upgraded, while the biggest addition to multiplayer will come in the form of map features (things like Watch Towers and gold minerals).

The units are annoying because they suck? Does every unit have to be a general purpose do-all? What is the banshee redundant with? A thor? Tanks? Ghosts? What makes the marauder overpowered, stim? What do you expect to see added to the observer or archon? Of all the units in the game, you want to change the observer.

There's no reason behind any of these. Just aimless gripes.

I think you've just pointed out the hilarity of a lot of fan complaints regarding unit utility. Specialist units are called to be made more useful while general purpose units are said to overlap with other units and thus need to be scrapped or nerfed.

Incidentally, does anyone find it interesting that despite their separate etymologies, the units people want to see scrapped tend to be their respective race's Scrappy?

[DemolitionSquid]

The units are annoying because they suck? Does every unit have to be a general purpose do-all? What is the banshee redundant with? A thor? Tanks? Ghosts? What makes the marauder overpowered, stim? What do you expect to see added to the observer or archon? Of all the units in the game, you want to change the observer.

There's no reason behind any of these. Just aimless gripes.

Maybe you should actually read a thread before you post in it. I explained in detail my position in my first post. The units we think could be removed if Blizzard needed to do so are usually bland and one dimensional with a cheap gimmick, or cross over too many roles making other units obsolete. They're not interesting, and they don't provide much skill to use or variation in strategy, whether alone or paired with other unit types. They "suck."

Take the Observer. Normally, it literally sits in one place cloaked, or moves around the map at bit with a patrol command. Pros sometimes pay accute attention to their Observers like Overlords, but it still can't do much other than look at things. It can't attack, it has no spells to use in combat. It has an important function, but its a boring unit that could use a facelift to make it more interactive.

As for the Marauder, I don't think it should be removed, but I do think its power overshadows and overlaps with many other units, and it could use some tweaking. SC2 is not perfectly balanced, and not every unit is proving its worth in the grand scheme of things. To think otherwise would be ludicrous.

[Drake Clawfang]

The Phoenix is a pet peeve of mine. It needlessly replaced the Corsair, which would have been perfect for SC2 seeing as it was already a Dark Templar unit, now with the Dark and High tribes working together. Its ability to levitate other units is interesting, but it is the ONLY unit with an attack in SC2 that can never win you the game because it can't hit buildings. Even the Corruptor can become a AtG Brood Lord. Frankly, I vastly preferred the Phoenix's original ability, Overload, which created micro and locational play, as well as fitting its name better and being more Corsair-esque in its AoE. I would love to see the Phoenix replaced, and I know I'm not alone on that.

Funny you mention this specifically D-squid. I had a game yesterday with a friend, tbh he wasn't good, I got a half-dozen Phoenix to his base, crushed a bunch of Overlords, G-beam'd two Queens and some Hydras, took out his Drones likewise...then waited for my Void Rays to finish so I could kill his hatchery. I agree that the Phoenix is lacking in any sort of gta efficiency. It's supposed to be an air superiority fighter, right, but that doesn't mean it has to be weak and helpless against ground, and while G-beam helps there's still massive units and turrets. Viking can switch to ground mode, corrupters can turn to brood lords, the Phoenix...can wait for the Void Rays to arrive.

Perhaps the Graviton beam is replaced by an ability that functions similarly but allows building attacks? Try this, just for a brainstorm.

Gravity Warp
50 Energy
Creates a field of energy over an area. The casting Phoenix cannot attack for a second or two after casting. Ground units in the area of effect experience heavy gravity that presents them from attacking air units because their projectiles cannot fire upwards. The field also redirects the Phoenix's lasers downwards, enabling ground units and buildings in the area of effect to be targeted by the Phoenix.

Retain the effect of incapacitating enemy units (though differently, Massive is not immune and they can still attack ground) and expand it to let the Phoenix attack ground units and buildings via a spell effect.

[DemolitionSquid]

Funny you mention this specifically D-squid. I had a game yesterday with a friend, tbh he wasn't good, I got a half-dozen Phoenix to his base, crushed a bunch of Overlords, G-beam'd two Queens and some Hydras, took out his Drones likewise...then waited for my Void Rays to finish so I could kill his hatchery. I agree that the Phoenix is lacking in any sort of gta efficiency. It's supposed to be an air superiority fighter, right, but that doesn't mean it has to be weak and helpless against ground, and while G-beam helps there's still massive units and turrets. Viking can switch to ground mode, corrupters can turn to brood lords, the Phoenix...can wait for the Void Rays to arrive.

Perhaps the Graviton beam is replaced by an ability that functions similarly but allows building attacks? Try this, just for a brainstorm.

Gravity Warp
50 Energy
Creates a field of energy over an area. The casting Phoenix cannot attack for a second or two after casting. Ground units in the area of effect experience heavy gravity that presents them from attacking air units because their projectiles cannot fire upwards. The field also redirects the Phoenix's lasers downwards, enabling ground units and buildings in the area of effect to be targeted by the Phoenix.

Retain the effect of incapacitating enemy units (though differently, Massive is not immune and they can still attack ground) and expand it to let the Phoenix attack ground units and buildings via a spell effect.

Don't get me wrong, I know the Phoenix is a strong unit with many practical applications. I want it removed purely because it had no reason to exist in the first place because we already had the DT Corsair.

Also, your suggested ability is just too complex for my taste.

[Twilice]

I wasn't a very competitive player in Starcraft 1 (I was to young and we didn't really have any internet so I only played single player). But I do wonder, what did corsairs have that scout didn't? The scout had a great anti air as well.

[Drake Clawfang]

Lower cost, higher speed, Disruption Web, splash damage, (I think) lower build time.

The Corsair, Valkyrie and Devourer were all introduced in BW to combat unit stacking, which was a glitch in the first game that they had to balance out. The Devourer's Acid Spores were just a bit of a variation, since the base Mutalisk already did splash damage, the Devourer was a support unit for it rather than a solo attacker.

[DemolitionSquid]

I wasn't a very competitive player in Starcraft 1 (I was to young and we didn't really have any internet so I only played single player). But I do wonder, what did corsairs have that scout didn't? The scout had a great anti air as well.

The big thing was the AoE damage. Scounts had high single target ata damage, but they were pretty bad against Mutalisks and Muta-stacking, which have always been uber-popular. It also didn't help they were ridiculously expensive to balance their shitty atg attack. Scouts were basically wraiths without Cloak. Ultimately, Protoss didn't really have very effective ways to deal with Mutalisks (just psi-storm and Dragoons) so the AoE and speed of the Corsair was a real boon for toss when BW rolled around.

Everything changed when muta-stacking was invented. It completely reworked the game balance and Blizzard was forced to compensate.

[viperjo]

Maybe you should actually read a thread before you post in it. I explained in detail my position in my first post. The units we think could be removed if Blizzard needed to do so are usually bland and one dimensional with a cheap gimmick, or cross over too many roles making other units obsolete. They're not interesting, and they don't provide much skill to use or variation in strategy, whether alone or paired with other unit types. They "suck."

Take the Observer. Normally, it literally sits in one place cloaked, or moves around the map at bit with a patrol command. Pros sometimes pay accute attention to their Observers like Overlords, but it still can't do much other than look at things. It can't attack, it has no spells to use in combat. It has an important function, but its a boring unit that could use a facelift to make it more interactive.

As for the Marauder, I don't think it should be removed, but I do think its power overshadows and overlaps with many other units, and it could use some tweaking. SC2 is not perfectly balanced, and not every unit is proving its worth in the grand scheme of things. To think otherwise would be ludicrous.

You contradict yourself. You want to remove or fix units that you deem gimmicky yet you want to tweak existing units, or replace them outright, with units that do a slightly different trick or transfer the gimmicky trick to a different unit. If you try to add too much then you'll end up with a schlew of abilities that are rarely used and people will clamor for their removal and if you trim too much out people clamor for diversity.

[Wankey]

Fungal growth still needs to be changed. IMO anything that shuts down gameplay is just bad, just not fun to watch. Like the Moon / Slush game just now in MLG, it was a great back and forth until the great shut down spells came into play. If fungal didn't exist in the game, it would be a completely different back and forth, but a few fungals, and his entire army is gone. That is just dumb. You can't dodge fungals, you can't really counter fungals (you don't have emp or feedback)