Unit removals possible for HOTS

[sandwich_bird]

Sounds like an interesting idea, but would it fit to "esport" multiplayer?

I don't really see why it wouldn't. In fact, it could help players identify more their style of play through the faction that they use; maybe the Raynor's Raiders could be more micro oriented while the dominion would display more of a macro style. I mean, wasn't that the whole objective of SC2? To differentiate players through their play-style? I remember Dustin talking about how much he liked that idea of players focusing on one aspect (micro or macro) and playing a race differently than someone else. With the introduction of factions, it would be a lot easier to accomplish such a thing.

CnC3 expansion went with that concept of factions and it just made the game less fun.

I always hated CnC so I wouldn't be able to comment on that. In any case, it's all about implementation. I'm sure that Blizzard could make it work.

Then again... wasn't Browder the designer for CnC3?

[Kimera757]

I don't really see why it wouldn't. In fact, it could help players identify more their style of play through the faction that they use; maybe the Raynor's Raiders could be more micro oriented while the dominion would display more of a macro style. I mean, wasn't that the whole objective of SC2? To differentiate players through their play-style? I remember Dustin talking about how much he liked that idea of players focusing on one aspect (micro or macro) and playing a race differently than someone else. With the introduction of factions, it would be a lot easier to accomplish such a thing.



I always hated CnC so I wouldn't be able to comment on that. In any case, it's all about implementation. I'm sure that Blizzard could make it work.

Then again... wasn't Browder the designer for CnC3?

No, he worked on Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2 and Command & Conquer: Generals.

Mind you, if he had designed the CnC III expansion, that might have taught him not to do that.

I can't see how a macro-boost subfaction could possibly be balanced with a micro-boost subfaction. Macro would always win.

I haven't tried the CnC3 expansion, but sub-factions worked very well in CnC Generals: Zero Hour IMO. (As in: it was really fun)
Each side had 3 subfaction, while still having the "normal" one to pick from ie;
• USA
- USA Air Force
- USA Superweapon
- USA Laser

The downside in Generals:Zero Hour was the balancing - But I believe blizzard could balance such a thing much better.

Weren't those subfactions all single-player?

[PhanttoM]

Weren't those subfactions all single-player?

They were in multiplayer - I remember almost always playing both online and (mostly) offline as the China Nuke General.
Amoung a few other things, all tanks would start with two lategame upgrades, (uranium shells: more damage and nuclear tanks: faster movement), at the expensive of blowing up on death and causing damage to both friendly and enemy units.
An expensive "stability" upgrade would remove exploding death/damage.

Translate that to SC2 and I'm thinking: Banelings starting with centrifugal hooks and +1 attacks, at the expense of the splash damage affecting friendly units. (until an upgrade removes friendly fire)

[sandwich_bird]

I can't see how a macro-boost subfaction could possibly be balanced with a micro-boost subfaction. Macro would always win.

Not necessarily. It can always be balanced. For example, you can't mass as many reavers as you can mass zerglings. Yet, one scarab and you can say bye to your zerglings.

Anyways, the micro/macro thing was just an example of what could be done with factions. Factions don't really need to be made around this topic either.

[Triceron]

tbh I think Starcraft's lore and universe is very well set up for subfactions. We have multiple Terran factions ranging from official Government military (Confederacy in SC1, Dominion in SC2), Rebel and Pirate militia, and remnants of the UED. Zerg could be split up into different evolutionary paths of the different Broodmothers. Protoss already have High Templar/Dark Templar split offs. Then there's also Robotic/Khalai parts to the army that could be expanded upon.

But SC2's fine-balanced gameplay works against such a system, and subfactions would mostly only work in a custom game/singleplayer setting.

[Wankey]

For HOTS, I'd rather have the following spells removed or reworked:

Force Field (removed, replaced with something else that slows, prevents zerg's massive speed advantage from surrounding slow Toss armies quickly)
Fungal Infestation (changed to a more plague - like spell)
Marauder Slow (Removing this will make zealots far more useful, make Marauders more of a specialty unit that assists marines in anti-armor mech based play rather than increasing overall DPS with its 10 dmg and tanking abilities with its 125 hp)
Zealot Charge (rework this to be zealot speed and make it a cheaper upgrade)

Overall units that I think should be reworked:
Overseer (this is for sure)
Roach / Hydra design (still at odds about this design, hydralisks are too expensive for what they do)
Brood lord (feel this unit could take a look at, on one hand it's ridiculously strong, on the other, it's ridiculously vulnerable to everything, even ground forces if caught in the open, and it's too slow to keep up with the fast moving zerg race)
Corruptor (This unit is simply boring and obviously and afterthought unit by Blizzard)

Raven (The PDD is a great spell in my opinion and more raven spells should look towards doing things like this. It doesn't feel ike it's a very supportive unit other than PDD unlike the science vessel)
Thor (This unit is either way too ridiculously OP or way too useless. There's no middle ground. It doens't fit any role other than big pathfinding nightmare and light air unit killer)
Marauder (IMO, this unit needs to be more of a support to marines than anything.)
Reaper (This unit is too silly, ti's got a huge anti-building spell that negates static defenses and is good for harass. That's just too easily designed. So many times I'm pissed at reaper design because they obliterate static defenses so easily, and I have to do with them with roaches because they suck so badly.)

Immortal (Immortal's should be cheaper, and have their hardened shield ugprade a research option since DKim realized as well that most people use this unit for its burst damage)
Voidray (I don't even know what to do with voidray, they've nerfed it to the point where it doesn't even have much of a role other than winning cheese games against early zerg)
Carrier (This unit needs to be redesigned to give it more of a majestic-ness of the old Starcraft 1. The interceptors need to flow out of it more better, they currently do really weird pathings around the carrier, sort of like hive of insects, when before the interceptors felt like swarms of birds. A simple fix is changing their pathing so they fly in more curved trajectories and add in banking to the interceptors themselves.)


Mothership - this unit should've been left on the cutting room floor, as it doesn't make any sense. Either make it fast and maneuvrable, remove its weapons and make it a deadly spell caster or something else. The singular mothership is too easily killed off by a good snipe and cannot be micro'd what so ever.

[DemolitionSquid]

Force Field (removed, replaced with something else that slows, prevents zerg's massive speed advantage from surrounding slow Toss armies quickly)

There is nothing wrong with FF. If it needed a nerf, it would simply be life-time (8 seconds over 15 for example).

Fungal Infestation (changed to a more plague - like spell)

We already had Plague. It did 300 damage, which was incredibly excessive against units, and insignificant against most buildings. It was also expensive. Fungal growth is by far the better skill.

Marauder Slow (Removing this will make zealots far more useful, make Marauders more of a specialty unit that assists marines in anti-armor mech based play rather than increasing overall DPS with its 10 dmg and tanking abilities with its 125 hp)

Marauders should be support units, not main infantry. The slowing ability helps this, not hinders it. Marauders need less base damage and a bit less HP. Slow, +Armor Dmg, and high HP let it be support.

Zealot Charge (rework this to be zealot speed and make it a cheaper upgrade)

You want to remove Marauder Slow to help Zealots, but then remove Charge to nerf Zealots?

Immortal (Immortal's should be cheaper, and have their hardened shield ugprade a research option since DKim realized as well that most people use this unit for its burst damage)

Why are you trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist? No one thinks the Immortal is OP or UP right now. It works just fine.

Voidray (I don't even know what to do with voidray, they've nerfed it to the point where it doesn't even have much of a role other than winning cheese games against early zerg)

The Void Ray may need a slight damage tweak to re-enforce is role as a heavy hitter, but its everything I wished the Scout could have been right now.

[SinsWage]

The only thing I'd like to see for certain is a big change to how Brood Lords work. Their speed is so depressing but simply buffing it would cause the unit to be OP.

I'd like to see them make brood lords have higher speed, maybe on par with speed roaches but when they reach their destination they have a delay while they spool up to attack. After that they could move at the speed they currently move at but when they wanted to disengage to run or get somewhere else they're immobile for a period of time while they spool down.

I don't know, I'd like them to be a little more unique. I guess I sort of just made them into an air siege tank but whatever. Their speed is such a bummer.

[mythology]

if they did remove anything, i don't think they would remove it from wings of liberty multiplayer. this would i think only affect heart of the swarm players.

so if they removed the reaper in heart of the swarm, you could still play it in wings of liberty. this could further separate the 2 multiplayer modes. i guess if it played out like that, after a while they would fix the reaper to a point where removing it was unnecessary but heart of the swarm has already replaced it.

from a greedy standpoint, if i worked for blizzard i would hope it turns out that way in which case blizzard could get even more money out of people by releasing a 4th expansion or multiplayer that merges it all.

i can see the reaper being changed or replaced. to me it's gimmick wasn't its terrain capability, but it's explosive ability they removed. i don't think terrain is enough to be the main feature of the unit. the colossus for example is more than it's ability to cross terrain.

[DemolitionSquid]

if they did remove anything, i don't think they would remove it from wings of liberty multiplayer. this would i think only affect heart of the swarm players.

Blizzard has stated numerous times this will be the case. WoL, HotS, and LotV will have different ladders and units. This thread is about how much HotS multiplayer units will differ from WoL multiplayer units. Specifically, what units could get replaced/removed/altered for HotS.