The Zerg Problem -- Statistical Analysis

[Pandonetho]

And yet the battlecruiser does signifcantly higher damage (64) to zero armoured targets after it upgrades its battery. Even to targets with 3 armour, it does 40 which is STILL more than the original attack damage of the battlcruiser.

Not only that, dark swarm doesn't exist anymore!
Scourge don't exist anymore!

A Battlecruiser will demolish a stalker in 3 volleys.

It takes the original battlecruiser 8 shots just to kill a dragoon. Note the massive difference. It's a new game. Not only that, in SC1 a critical mass of BCs already destroyed MANY things, imagine what just a few of these in SC2 can do already.

[pure.Wasted]

First, just to clarify, I'd like to note that I'm arguing a position which hurts me more than helps me. Skewing the numbers even more against the Zerg is counter-intuitive... and yet...

And yet the battlecruiser does signifcantly higher damage (64) to zero armoured targets after it upgrades its battery. Even to targets with 3 armour, it does 40 which is STILL more than the original attack damage of the battlcruiser.

Not only that, dark swarm doesn't exist anymore!
Scourge don't exist anymore!

A Battlecruiser will demolish a stalker in 3 volleys.

It takes the original battlecruiser 8 shots just to kill a dragoon. Note the massive difference. It's a new game. Not only that, in SC1 a critical mass of BCs already destroyed MANY things, imagine what just a few of these in SC2 can do already.

Bolded for clarity. You just proved my own point. My definition of significant and insignificant changes, as pertains to this discussion, as in the OP:

New/significantly changed -- inevitably somewhat subjective; new units are obvious, significant changes are those that alter a unit's role to such a degree that it might as well have been a completely different one.

Old/minor changes -- inevitably somewhat subjective; old units are obvious, minor changes are those that perform almost the same role, although they may be better or worse at it.

The Battlecruiser is better at doing things it could already do in the original game. So is the Siege Tank, so are many units.

The Ghost, a unit that we recognize, for the purposes of this analysis, as being "significantly changed" -- does completely different things from its SC1 counterpart. As far as the gameplay is concerned, the switch from Lockdown to Snipe/EMP/Nuke renders the unit unrecognizable.

Why are we using this system of classification? Because completely revamped units bring in new gameplay that wasn't present in the original (Nukes weren't 'present' because they weren't practical, and so were not taken into account in strategies), and make gameplay fresh. The Zerg lack revamped units, which means their gameplay isn't fresh.

^bad.

[RODTHEGOD]

And yet the battlecruiser does signifcantly higher damage (64) to zero armoured targets after it upgrades its battery. Even to targets with 3 armour, it does 40 which is STILL more than the original attack damage of the battlcruiser.

Not only that, dark swarm doesn't exist anymore!
Scourge don't exist anymore!

A Battlecruiser will demolish a stalker in 3 volleys.

It takes the original battlecruiser 8 shots just to kill a dragoon. Note the massive difference. It's a new game. Not only that, in SC1 a critical mass of BCs already destroyed MANY things, imagine what just a few of these in SC2 can do already.

There's a difference between improving it/removing its threats and fundamentally changing it/how it plays/how you play it.
Learn the difference

[Blazur]

The Zerg really are in need of something new and exciting. I'm not gonna even bother talking about the balance of the race as a whole because I trust that will even itself out, but from an evolved race with fun and interesting abilities they just don't seem to stack up against the Protoss and Terran. It seems like there's a severe lack of strategies and options for playing as the Zerg.

However, I completely disagree with making the Hydra a cliff-walking unit. It's already versatile enough as it is, but allowing it to scale walls is just too much. Let them give this mechanic to the Lurker, either by way of clinging up the sides of walls or burrowing underneath them. And for god's sake make that unit more interesting instead of keeping its currently lame abilities.

[pure.Wasted]

However, I completely disagree with making the Hydra a cliff-walking unit. It's already versatile enough as it is, but allowing it to scale walls is just too much.

Out of curiosity, what makes you say that the Hydra is "already versatile"? It has a ranged attack... but so do Reapers. The stats, as you say, can be tweaked to Hell and back.

What is the untweakable element you're thinking of?

[Eligor]

The Hydralisk is a generalist. Giving it Cliff-Walking would result (I think) in it becoming all too ubiquitous, the ability to traverse cliffs should be reserved for more specialized units.

[MattII]

Well the Overlord at least ought to be considered new, I mean, regardless of losing detection it now drops creep, which is somewhat equivalent to the Warp Prism. Also, BC and Ghost aren't siege units (they have abilities that can outrange defences, but neither of their normal attacks so), and with the Creep Drop and loss of detection the Overlord isn't that much of a defensive unit any more.

I also disagree with your solution to the Zerg's problems, partly because I despise the Hydralisk (it looks ridiculous, I mean, would you expect a snake to try and move around with half it's body upright?) and reckon it ought to have been dropped, and partly because I figure a cliff-climbing Lurker would be too powerful (I mean, at least the Colossus can get hit by everything, Lurker hits the ground and burrows instantly).

[pure.Wasted]

The Hydralisk is a generalist. Giving it Cliff-Walking would result (I think) in it becoming all too ubiquitous, the ability to traverse cliffs should be reserved for more specialized units.

Ah, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

We can't both want the old units to become new and interesting, and yet argue that they must remain as generalist as they are. Why must the Hydralisk be such a generalist? There is certainly nothing in the code that requires it.

The Zergling has been able to fight off both Zealots and Stalkers in the past; both Marines and Marauders; both Roaches and Hydralisks. So, in reality, the Zerg have two generalists one right after another -- and have they ever needed it? They've gotten by in SC1 without almost ever using Hydralisks, so I'm leaning toward "no."

I think we are very free to alter the Hydralisk as we see fit.

[pure.Wasted]

Well the Overlord at least ought to be considered new, I mean, regardless of losing detection it now drops creep, which is somewhat equivalent to the Warp Prism.

The versatility of creep remains something of a mystery. If it is only good for managing your base, then the Overlord has only changed in a macro function, which this article is not interested in. If the bonus it offers to ground units is so significant as to warrant sending Overlords out in the middle of the map to plant creep for an offensive push... then we're on to something.

I'll go ahead and ask in one of the BlizzCon threads about testers' responses to it. If it is worth pursuing as an offensive tactic, then I'll add it to the list.

Also, BC and Ghost aren't siege units (they have abilities that can outrange defences, but neither of their normal attacks so)

The Infestor isn't a harass unit, it just has an ability that can destroy workers without giving its position away. See the problem with that approach?

As long as they are capable of laying siege to a place, then for the purposes of this article, at least, they can be considered siege units. Really, the purpose of the marker is to identify (some of) the units that have a very strong proactive presence in games. These, like units that harass or walk up and down cliffs, are the units that give a player options.

I also disagree with your solution to the Zerg's problems, partly because I despise the Hydralisk (it looks ridiculous, I mean, would you expect a snake to try and move around with half it's body upright?) and reckon it ought to have been dropped

The reality of the situation is that the Hydralisk is one of the most recognizable units in StarCraft canon. As much as this might benefit the gameplay, its position in the game may as well be set in stone. Our purpose here is to attempt to work with what Blizzard has given us... otherwise, we must admit defeat. And it's too early in the fight for that!

and partly because I figure a cliff-climbing Lurker would be too powerful (I mean, at least the Colossus can get hit by everything, Lurker hits the ground and burrows instantly).

Keep in mind that there is an ability significantly more versatile than cliff-walking -- flight -- and this ability does not preclude Blizzard from balancing plenty of very powerful very maneuverable units.

There are many ways to balance a cliff-walking Lurker, including making it lower on the tech tree and weaker, or making its burrow/unburrow take longer, or any other number of things. We really shouldn't concern ourselves with impracticalities of balance because the tools for such things are nearly infinite.

[Eligor]

Hydralisks are THE generalists of the Swarm, they're butter to the Zergling bread. The Zergling is melee and can't attack air, Hydralisks compensate that. Of course we could make the Hydralisk solely anti-air, but then cliff walking is not that relevant. If the Hydralisk is mainly an anti ground cliff walking unit (with limited anti-air capacity) then I don't see many possible tweaks for it to be an interesting cliff walker, you could lower the damage, up the rate of fire and have a Zerg version of the Marauder, but that's not particularly interesting, higher damage would make it far too deadly in the numbers in which it is produced for now, and I can't think of any interesting ideas in that direction (not saying there aren't).


ALTHOUGH (just had this idea), if the Hydralisk's ground attack becomes melee while keeping a ranged anti-air I could see it as a viable cliff-walker (that would also have the added benefit of giving the Roach a stronger role as an anti-ground ranged unit).