The Zerg Problem -- Statistical Analysis

[Rake]

I like your analysis and your suggestions. I've thought about giving hydralisks cliff climbing for ages. I think it would be interesting to have the hydralisks take some time to climb up and down (not much time, just longer than the colossus and reapers) to differentiate them from the others.

I think one of the problems of zerg is that because the units are very focussed and good at what they do that means there is less room for others.

What do you say to people who say that the mutalisk is the ultimate harasser and so zerg doesn't need another?

[pure.Wasted]

You put Battlecruisers under minorly changed?
Really?

2 new Abilities? Completely new attack pattern? 600 HP?

Xyvik beat me to it.

What do you say to people who say that the mutalisk is the ultimate harasser and so zerg doesn't need another?

I say two things:

1. The Overlord was the ultimate detector, but Blizzard made it lose functionality because that was not good gameplay. Likewise, Medics were replaced higher in the tech tree because having something that WORKS doesn't mean it's something GOOD for the game. If the Mutalisk concept is so detrimental to the Zerg having other harassing options (something I don't believe) it may need to go the way of the Medic.

2. Having more options never hurt anyone. Except the player on the other end. Mutalisks are micro-intensive. Macro players are hard-pressed to find options for a unit that can harass successfully, and don't have as many options that are as viable as the Terrans or Protoss. This is especially counter-intuitive because the Zerg are supposed to be the macro-intensive race, and yet their harassment options are limited completely to micro-intensive stacked hit and runs. It's not a bad thing by any means to offer diversity by offering alternatives... but the Mutalisk is not an alternative. It's practically the only option.

[MattII]

I disagree with the OP, if the Ghost can be considered new so can the BC (8*8 damage, new abilities, not longer gets automatic ability upgrade), Overlord (no longer detector, but drops creep instead) and Ultralisk (massively more Hp, splash attack + building attack), look at the functionality, not just the image.

[RODTHEGOD]

I find it hard to believe that anyone has not come to the same conclusion as this. Blizzard has just brought back too many of the old zerg units and havent provided them with enough new spells and abilities. The things blizzard has done for the zerg, is either provide them with enhanced general abilities (which are cool but not enough) and basically make the units more efficient compared to their SC1 counterparts.

You have already named some examples (by the way you forgot the changling) of units that could be improved upon and how they could be improved upon. I personally don't like the exxamples you gave though, like hydralisks and lurkurs are cool and all, but the idea of them being able to climb cliffs just doesnt appeal to me. Its not that I don't want the zerg to have cliffwalk but rather I think the Zerg's cliff-walking unit should be a melee unit.

Personally, here are some changes I would make;

1. Scrap the Lurker and the Ultralisk - they were cool in starcraft 1, they were big bad killing machines, but lets face it, this is a different era and I think the zerg need more then just beefed up, heavy units.

2. Make the Zergling the true LING of the ZERG- I also agree that the zerg don't have many early options as the Terrans or Protoss and I think one way to expand their options is to provide more evolutions at that level rather then just add in a new tech building with a new unit. As well I think the Zergling could be made to be a very effective and diverse staple unit of the zerg. By providing another evolution to it and by providing new upgrades at later levels that enhances it greatly.

Some suggestions for an evolution is to have an evolution of a better melee unit and it is this unit that would have the cool upgrades and abilities such as cliff-walk and something I would really like to see for the zerg is the Thor's rebirth mechanic.

Now it wouldn't be like the Thor's rebirth mechanic exactly but rather just the idea of a unit that after its killed, it gets back up in a bit. Now to me that seems like a sweet ass ability for the zerg (and I think it would be much cooler on a fairly cheap massable unit rather then a big ass unit).

Another thing I think the zergling could e improved is possibly to have an upgrade on a late tier that allows 3 zerglings to spawn from an eggs rather then just 2. I think it would really make the zerg more "swarmy" as they advance through their tech as the other races get more powerful in theirs.

3. The Hydralisk and the Roach - These units should really be on the same level but provide 2 different directions of play. I think the Roach should be a short range attacker, much like the Firebat was in the original Starcraft. The Hydralisk should become the next level after the Zergling with high versatility, an evolution and maybe some upgrades at later tiers. Personally I think the ability to move while burrowed would go awsomely with the hydralisk, so to give it a suprise sort of role.

4. A New Big Ass Unit - Now I know the Ultralisk was cool, but this is a new age and it needs to go. Now personally I think a kick ass unit for the zerg would be a unit that was big, wide and flat (basically picture a big crab), and it would have 2 passive abilities. One would allow other small unit to go underneeth it and the other would block all the incoming shots that were aimed at the units that were underneith it so it would become the Zergs siege unit, not by being a giant catapult like the siege tank but rather being a sort of battering ram, that provides your units with a way to get up close and personal without being fired upon until necissary.

Now those were just some basic idea's I had but I'm sure a whole bunch of ideas will pop up in here after this post

[pure.Wasted]

I disagree with the OP, if the Ghost can be considered new so can the BC, Overlord and Ultralisk, and possibly even the HT.

How did one use a Battlecruiser in SC2? To take out high-priority targets and base defenses... and to take hits. Yamato Cannon and Defensive Matrix do both of these things, still. Only Plasma Torpedoes offers an alternative, and from what I hear, most players chose Matrix anyway. Probably because the Terrans have sufficient splash damage as it is.

The Battlecruiser does not open significantly new tactics to the Terran that were not present in SC1. The Ghost, on the other hand, does. When used, it was used almost exclusively for Lockdown. Now it doesn't even have that ability, and instead has an array of completely different, functional, and practical abilities.

Using your standard, a Marine is significantly changed because he can survive a Siege Tank blast. Obviously, this standard is not useful in any way because then every unit becomes "significantly changed" in relation to at least one other unit in the game. This does not help any argument.

edit: to top it off, Battlecruisers don't even have 8*8 attack anymore. They have to upgrade for it.

Overlord (no longer detector, but drops creep instead)

This is a macro functionality, not at all useful in battle. This article is specifically about Zerg army make-up and how many options they have as far as battle and harassment is concerned; I noted this many times. As interesting as that mechanic is, it doesnot provide the Zergling and Hydralisk and Mutalisk with new tactics that were not available before. Nor does it bring the Zerg game up 10 years the way the Terrans and Protoss have come along.

and Ultralisk (massively more Hp, splash attack + building attack), look at the functionality, not just the image.

What units are you going to use the Ultralisk with? The same ones. How are you going to use it? The same way, Attack+move. Nothing has changed as far as the tactics are concerned. It is a more powerful unit, yes, but not strategically changed in any way.

[MattII]

Marines could take ST blasts in SC (ST does 35 damage to small in Siege Mode, Marine had 40 hp), although just barely, and in fact they 'can't' take ST blast now, not until they get the upgrade.

[pure.Wasted]

Good read, and by the way I think you should take this yet-to-be-confirmed Roach trait into consideration:


Source: http://starfeeder.gameriot.com/blogs...2-review/page5


-Psi

Ah! This is very interesting... very interesting indeed...

The problem is, no one was complaining about the Roach's lack of interesting gameplay. He already had plenty. It's the other units that are of concern -- the ones that've fallen behind by about ten years. A more interesting Roach does not make the Hydralisk more interesting, or the Brood Lord, or the Lurker, and so on and so forth.

Marines could take ST blasts in SC (ST does 35 damage to small in Siege Mode, Marine had 40 hp), although just barely, and in fact they 'can't' take ST blast now, not until they get the upgrade.

All right, I was completely wrong! By your estimation.... Marines should still be considered "significantly changed," simply in the OTHER direction from what I noted.

Once more, there is a purpose to all of the classifications. If we were simply doing the classifying for classifying's sake, that would be one thing. But we're not. We're looking at how many new tactics open up -- for the Zerg, the number is significantly lower than the other two races. This is demonstrated primarily by their lack of options for early/mid-game harassment.

[Eligor]

This is a great article, though I'm not sure how much I agree with the notion of giving Hydralisks cliff walking... Now Lurkers I think should be given an upgrade allowing them to move while burrowed just like Infestors, and furthermore, to tunnel up and down cliffs. They should also be brought down by half a tier. I also think the Zerg definitely need one or two additional new units, but that's for another thread.

[Pandonetho]

......and it will end up being used almost exactly as it was in the first game.

I agree with its placement as being minorly changed. 2 new abilities and more HP still places it in the exact same place it was in the first game, it just makes it slightly more effective in the area.

I'm glad you're such a psychic and can predict the metagame of SC2.

I'll ask your professional opinion next time before posting.

[pure.Wasted]

I'm glad you're such a psychic and can predict the metagame of SC2.

I'll ask your professional opinion next time before posting.

The Battlecruiser's uses in SC1 are: to destroy high-priority targets/defenses, and to take damage when other things would die.

In SC2, the Battlecruiser has Yamato Cannon and Defensive Matrix; the former retains the BC's function as destroyer, the latter enhances its function as a tanker.

I don't see how these could change the way the unit is used. The third option, Plasma Torpedoes, has been noted by testers (such as in the Critical Mass articles) to be overshadowed by the other two, particularly Matrix.