The Zerg Problem -- Statistical Analysis

[Rake]

How about this:

Hydralisks get cliff climbing as an upgrade and take some time to climb each cliff.

Since they aren't great against light units, take a while to get the upgrade and are slow to climb they wont be the best for raiding but they will still be a usefull threat. This would also help thier anti-air role since they can climb cliffs that air units could otherwise hide behind. The slow climb could also present micro opportunities, especially against the other cliff climbers which climb cliffs fast.

[PsiWarp]

Perhaps the Hydralisk Den could provide replaceable upgrades, speed or cliff climb, you can't have both at the same time but you may replace speed over cliff climb (vice versa) by researching the opposite.


-Psi

[Aldrius]

goliaths, goliaths, and wraiths (strong ATA with decent ATG with cloak) were general purpose as well. and they got cut.

Being able to attack both air and ground does not make you 'general purpose'. The wraith is a raiding unit and anti-armored air unit. Plain and simple.

The Goliath is quite a bit more versatile, but it's still fairly limited as an anti-armored air unit.

Its not about having few or more general purpose and support unit its all about having NEW units that will be fit in either as a general pupose or a support unit. If you say zerg makes them zerg bcoz they only got 3 general purpose unit, then remove at least one or from it and replace buy a new one.

What are you even saying here? If it's not about having more general purpose or support units, then what's wrong with the 5 new support units the Zerg got? There are at least three generalist Zerg units. The Zergling, Hydralisk and Mutalisk. A case can be made for the Ultralisk too, but everything else is almost assuredly a support unit.

I still think the Hydralisk and Mutalisk could be upgraded or changed to make them both feel new and more interesting. (Especially since the Mutalisk has one less upgrade now, and the Mutalisk as usual, has none.) But a new unit is not necessary to make the game feel more interesting and new.

I don't really have a good idea right now but i can always invent some crazy idea.

That's exactly what you SHOULDN'T be doing when inventing a new unit. It should be something that brings something new to the table, some new flavour like the Stalker (showing the new role Dark Templar play in the Protoss army), or provides a new role like the Void Ray, or greatly expands on an old role like the Colossus.

Just shoving something in there with no purpose isn't going to cut it.

Give the ultralisk (make it tier 2.5 maybe) a morph ability, it turns into a slow moving zerg ground turtle hive which allows you to make 3 more kind of zerg units, one of it is the zerg scourge. This unit use also shoots a green ball that ensnares units after it explodes.

So Scourge, Ensnare, a morph ability, and a solid tank. All in one unit. Nothing about this strikes you as odd?

Note, this is just an example on how to change the zerg more in sc2.

I have no idea right now on how to make the air zerg units new.

What if they introduced a powerful ATA unit with a fair amount of HP and decent damage, but with an ability that allows it to fill a support role if you mix it in with other ground or air units, but also works as a powerful ATA unit in it's own right?

Maybe we can call it the Infector or the Corrupticon or something. I think it sounds like a good idea to me!

Sarcasm aside, as I've said, I do think the Hydralisk and Mutalisk are probably a bit TOO same-y. I just don't think a major overhaul like replacing them or giving the Hydralisk cliff-climb is the answer. I'd rather see something like the Hydralisk getting some sort of attack upgrade to reward players in some way who figure out how to use it properly.

I just don't know what that is... bah...

[Nicol Bolas]

Like make the roach as the core massable GTG of the zerg as it is kinda now. Then make a hydralisk replacement, something like a hydralisk evolution lorewise, a bigger serpent bug like monster which is decent against air units but very weak against ground units.

So you want to get rid of Zerglings? You know, the standard core massable GtG unit of the Zerg army? Roaches are tank units, designed to absorb damage for other units. Their damage is not their primary utility.

If you turn the Roach into a core massable GtG unit, you're replacing Zerglings. Or you make the Roach useless. One or the other will become redundant.

And then you want to turn Hydralisks into GtA specialists. Like Goliaths or something.

Did you even read the requirements? I said that there were 3 unit slots: mass GtG, mass ground generalist, mass air generalist. You somehow read this as: "remove the generalist and make it a support unit, then add another mass GtG unit to overlap with the other mass GtG".

Give the ultralisk (make it tier 2.5 maybe) a morph ability, it turns into a slow moving zerg ground turtle hive which allows you to make 3 more kind of zerg units, one of it is the zerg scourge. This unit use also shoots a green ball that ensnares units after it explodes.

Note, this is just an example on how to change the zerg more in sc2.

If this is your best example of a good idea for a Zerg unit, you shouldn't be involved in any serious discussion of making new Zerg units.

Also, this did not answer the question, as it is not a core, massable unit. So, not only is it an unfathomably stupid idea, it's also not a replacement for the 3 prime Zerg units.

Its not about having few or more general purpose and support unit its all about having NEW units that will be fit in either as a general pupose or a support unit. If you say zerg makes them zerg bcoz they only got 3 general purpose unit, then remove at least one or from it and replace buy a new one.

I gave you the opportunity to do so. You came up with the idea of making 2 mass GtG units, and turning the ranged generalist into a GtA support unit.

I would also point out that Blizzard already tried that. It failed. Which is why the Hydralisk moved back to Tier 1 to take on its generalist role, and why the Roach is more of a Tank now.

The simple fact is that there are only so many ways to make "mass GtG", "mass ground ranged" and "mass generalist air" units without being able to resort to activated abilities.

too much gameplay related discussion. I really dont care, but i have to agree zerg is all about fast building units and having a lot of them in the battlefied.

Oh, I'm sorry we're disturbing you with these discussion of the game. I'll increase the inane quotient of my posts immediately

[electricmole]

in other words you both like the zerg line up right now in sc2. And i do not.

i want new units no matter what the role, stats, generalist, support, who cares! im not taking muliplayer games as a career, i leave all the balance, stats, roles, etc, to blizzard and i will play what they will come up with. If they removed this unit or that, who cares just as long new units and roles will be introduced.

Why take my examples seriously. they are just examples. Blizzard examples of new units, roles, etc, are the ones that would matter, unfortunately they are not creating or showing any.

Well, I just hope blizz will realized and will not be satisfied with the current zerg.

I just want new zerg units coz the zerg just feel so boring because they have almost all if not all "ok not core" but most attack units (all 6 can attack) from sc1 back in sc2. the terran and toss have tons of new ones. and this is obvious and a problem, well obviously not for zerg sc1 gameplay fanboys.

i believe new zerg attack units and roles will give them new effective (just like in sc1) battle mechanics and tactics just like the terran and toss got in sc2.

Why be easily satisfied with the 6 old effective attack units if potential new units are possible with newer and exciting roles, mechanics, roles, etc for sc2.

Which one is more exciting and fun for sc2 considering both are balanced? IMO the new ones ofcourse! just like the terran and toss attack line up or sc2.

roach and corruptor is just not enough to make the zerg exciting compared to terran's hellion, reapers, marauder, viking, banshee, thor..and toss colossus, immortals, stalkers, warp ray, and phoenix. Note this are all attack units, broodlord is a guardian, queen is mothership so they are both fine and out, baneling is fine but just a zergling suicide skil.

nydus and overseer takes up one unnecesarry spot for a potential new zerg attacker. Anyway both are not actually a big deal for me, its the 6 old zerg attack units sc1 that takes up most of the zerg line up in sc2. What worst is they are all zerg attackers and coming back again in sc2. Most attackers of terran and toss from sc1 were cut and replace by plenty of new ones, around 5-6 new attackers.

the zerg only got 2 new attackers and 6 returning ones. Is that exciting and fun? NO!

[Nicol Bolas]

If they removed this unit or that, who cares just as long new units and roles will be introduced.

And that's your problem. Your perspective and understanding of the functioning of the Zerg race is shallow at best, non-existent at worst. I'll try to explain it one more time, but you seem to be completely unable grasp this, or just don't care about inconvenient facts that get in the way of whatever you call "interesting and fun":

You can't give the Zerg a Stalker. It just doesn't work. Regardless of what it looks like, it is not a Zerg unit. This is partially racial flavor, but partially, it is due to the unique production methodology of the Zerg compared to other races.

The simple fact is that the Zerg production method is best used by having a small number of core generalists supported by a larger number of very pigeonholed specialists. This gives the Zerg a strength and a weakness.

The Terrans have a lot of units with a lot of overlapping roles. This is because they have to, by the nature of their production methods. The Terrans have 3 production buildings, each with their own support buildings. Building support infrastructure for the Factory (Armory) does (almost) nothing for the support infrastructure for other units. Your Medivacs don't get better with an Armory. Your Marauders don't get better with an Armory. Investinging in Factor-based units means not investing in Barracks or StarPort units. And vice-versa.

So every Terran production building needs to cover the basics. Each one has its own flavor of course, with its own weaknesses (Barracks is very low Hp, even by Terran standards; Factory is all armored; StarPort stuff all flies). There is quite a bit of role and function overlap, which necessitates giving different units different flavors. The Terran who invests in Factories must be able to deal with a Zerg who does an anti-Factory tech switch at least reasonably well.

Something similar happens with the Protoss, though that degenerated in SC1 due to the StarGate being all-but-useless save for getting Corsairs vs. Zerg, and being able to get by on only a couple of Reavers due to Shuttle/Reaver micro. Even so, it's clear that the Gateway contains the most generally useful Protoss units, with primarily supporting units coming from the RoboFac and the StarGate.

The Zerg are nothing like this. All their units come from a single source. Because of this, they can easily change the composition of their army at any time.

In short, the Zerg are the race that is most able to use any of its units at any one time. Therefore, all Zerg units must have a real purpose, a reason to build them for a certain situation and not something else. There can be little if any role overlap in Zerg units, and it should usually be obvious which units would be preferable when confronting which enemy unit mixtures.

Just look at how degenerate the other two races are. Terrans vs. anything but Zerg degenerate down to Factory-based battles (and even Mech builds vs. Zerg are considered standard play now). Many Terran units are virtually useless, except under very specific circumstances. The Barracks is without purpose in 2/3rds of all matchups, and with the prevelance of Mech in TvZ, you're seeing even less of that. That's 4 entire units that only occasionally see serious play (and the Ghost is always a gimmick unit). Wraith play tends to be a gimmick more than a strategy, Valkyries only see play in Mech vs. Zerg, and BCs are only ever seen in late-game TvT. Science Vessels and DropShips are the only real reasons to build StarPorts.

The Protoss never, ever use Scouts, outside of some really wacky gimmick. Air units, aside from the Corsair vs. Zerg and Arbiters, are exceedingly rare. Carriers occasionally get tossed out in PvT, but those go down in flames as often as they actually work.

What Zerg units never see serious play? The Queen. And Guardians. Devourers are situational; if you throw down enough Corsairs, a decent Zerg player will get Devourers to stop you. Guardians, well, kinda suck. They're almost never worth their cost.

Outside of those, every other unit sees serious playtime. Hell, it's quite often that every other unit sees serious play time in one game! Zergling into Mutalisk harass, into Hydra/Lurk, into Lurker/Ling/Defiler, into Lurker/Ling/Defiler/Ultralisk. That's the general path the Zerg follow. Scourge will be used as needed for Corsairs/Vessels. No other race has this level of diversity of unit mixtures in the same match.

ZvZ is a completely degenerate matchup, however; due to the nature of Hydralisks, Mutalisks, and of mirror matchups entirely, ZvZ is a Ling/Scourge/Muta fight.

What's the point of this? This isn't to say that the SC1 Zerg were perfect. It's to say that the Zerg production methodology lends itself to certain kinds of units, just as the Terran and Protoss production methods lend themselves to certain kinds of units.

Because you can get any one Zerg unit just by throwing down a single building, Zerg units must be specialized. They must have a clear and distinct function, and that function must be clearly separated from the function of other units. The other races don't work like that; they tend to have subtle role differences.

For example, both the Hellion and the Reaper are technically anti-light. The Reaper does extra damage to light units, while the Hellions have large AoE but relatively low damage per shot. Yet they're used for two different purposes, and they are used in two different situations. One of them has powerful mobility due to cliff climbing, while the other simply moves fast.

The Zerg have one anti-light unit. The Baneling. It has AoE and a damage bonus to light units. Ultralisks, due to their high damage and large well of HP, as well as AoE attack, will do well against light units. But that's not their primary purpose, and they won't be as good at it as Tier 3 upgraded Banelings.

The old UNIX philosophy is: Do one thing, and do it well. That is what Zerg units do (which is why the Roach is having such a problem finding a place. It hasn't found its one thing).

nydus and overseer takes up one unnecesarry spot for a potential new zerg attacker.

First of all, there are no "spots". Blizzard puts in the number of units that work. They are not limited to unit "slots", only functional viable in-game roles. The presence or absence of the Overseer has nothing to do with the presence or absence of any new Zerg attack unit.

Secondly, the Nydus Worm isn't a unit. I asked before rhetorically, but I'm serious this time: do you even read the thread? We talked about it right here, how it used to be a unit and it isn't anymore. How did you miss a multi-page discussion?

the zerg only got 2 new attackers and 6 returning ones. Is that exciting and fun? NO!

Your assumptions are the same as the original post:

1: That units must be, isolated from anything else, the source of excitement and fun.

2: That any such exciting and fun units would fit into the Zerg.

[Pandonetho]

I think we should all play as Zerg first and reserve our judgement.

In other words I'm going to agree with Nicol. The Zerg are very unique in the way they're played, and it's all in their mechanics, not their specific units. I personally think they look pretty fun to play, as they're very different from Terran and Protoss.

[Rake]

Nicole, wouldn't cliff climbing improve the hydralisks specialisation in range since it can use its range with cliff climbing to set ambushes and pursue air units?

[n00bonicPlague]

The Hydralisk is more generalist than specialist. Giving a generalist a specialist ability can make it very overpowered.

[Pandonetho]

If Hydralisks became cliff climbers they might as well be called mutalisks.

Both are general well rounded units that do good in large numbers.

And why does every race need land units that can traverse cliffs? Let's try to keep things a little diverse here.