The Zerg Problem -- Statistical Analysis

[SoFool]

Hydras arent so imba when they face mnm in sc1, with that I can't imagine them facing the new mnm (marine, marauder or medivac combo) in sc2 ><

[supersonic]

Hydras arent so imba when they face mnm in sc1, with that I can't imagine them facing the new mnm (marine, marauder or medivac combo) in sc2 ><

haaaaa I'ma noob and can't read =]



IMO I don't think Zerg should have a cliff walking unit, I want the races to be as different as possible...

[Aldrius]

Now lets go to each races basic core attack units that you will always use in battles, the zerg got all 6 back from sc1 and that is less fun and exciting that the other races in sc2.

The Zerg have all four. The four basic Zerg units are the Zergling, Hydralisk, Ultralisk and Mutalisk. One's basic melee, ones a tank, one's a basic flyer, one's basic ranged. Lurker and Guardian/Brood Lord are both support units.

But here's the thing: you can't really replace these basic units. They're the very essence of the Zerg. You can improve them, (such as giving the Ultalisk a cleaving attack or giving the Zergling a new morph) but you can't replace them. (The replacements would basically have to just be the exact same unit as it's replacing.)

The main issue I think the Zerg have right now is their casters. Without Spore Cloud the Overseer is pretty bland, and Neural Parasite is the only cool spell the Infestor has got (Fungal whatever looks promising, though). The Queen is okay as far as a macro mechanic, but as a spellcaster/base defense unit she's bland as heck.

And this is so weird, because in SC1 the Terrans big problem was it's infantry, the Protoss' biggest problem was it's lack of interesting later-tier main army units. And they fixed both of those issues big time. Yet Zerg casters are still just as limited and bland.

[Crota]

If this has already been address, my apologies, I didn't feel like reading through 8 pages of the article, call me lazy but...

I think the oringal purpose of the article isn't to state that zerg isn't powerful as we all know that balance changes can make any race better, more dmg to the zergling for example would change the gameplay drastically. I think the original intent is the lack of reinvisioning or redesign of the race. For a race that was suppose to evolve for 4 years, and this being the zerg a lot of changes could have taken place, the zerg still feels the same from what it sounds like.

Now we still have some months until the beta and new units could be added using existing existing wireframes to perhaps change the face/value of the zerg. I'm not saying to give Zerg its own way to traverse cliffs just like Protoss/Terran. I think its actually smart that zerg doesn't have that ability as it gives each race its own unique edge and feel. I'm still looking to find something that is distcintly zerg in the early/mid game. I think banelings was suppose to fill that role but I never grow attached to suiciding units...

Perhaps the latest build will change that. The rumored roach ability to move while burrowed should play very nicely into that. Lets just hope they don't get burrow movement happy and have them burrow up/down cliffs unless its very late game. Keeping each race unqiue yet balanced will be an on going task, espically when they open it up to a larger sample size.

[B~E]

In SC 1, zergs had their most usefull units at tiers 1 (all purpose hydralisk and zergling), and tier 2 technologies gave zerg the abilities they needed to end the game (mass mobility and detection with overlord upgrades and Queen's parasite, mobile defense with lurkers, cheap and effective harass with mutalisk, air control with scourges).

In SC1, tier-3 technologies werent usualy needed for a player to end the game. Upgraded overlords would allow the player full access to the map, thus circumventing ennemy defenses and siege units, the Queen's broolings could severly undermine an ennemy's siege units and spellcasters, while mass producing hydralisk would do the rest.

Now, in SC2, it seems blizzard wants to force the player to tech to tier-3 technologies in other to compete with the protoss and terran.

[Islandsnake]

Pretty sure you needed swarm to close out most games o.0

[B~E]

It depends on the player's style. I tried to last as long as I could with lings, would rely on upgraded overlords for map control, and would use queen's spawn broolings and web to compete against terrans with medic or siege tank.

[Nicol Bolas]

they are kinda imba in sc1

I'm sorry, what? Did you say that Hydralisks in SC1 are imbalanced? Really, you're sticking with that.

If Hydralisks were imbalanced, ZvZ would be Hydralisk matches. And yet, Hydralisks are the only Tier 1 unit in ZvZ to not see playtime. If Hydralisks were imbalanced, Lurker/Ling would not be preferable to Hydra/Lurk vs Terran. And yet, it is (unless the Terran's going for Mech). And so on.

Hydralisks are not the solution to every Zerg problem. They weren't in SC1, and they're not in SC2.

with that I can't imagine them facing the new mnm (marine, marauder or medivac combo) in sc2

Hydralisks weren't good at M&M because:

1: Zerglings are really good at M&M.

2: They did explosive damage, so they got their 10 damage cut in half vs. small units. Like M&M.

5 damage from a Hydralisk is nothing compared to 5 damage from a Zergling. 'Lings are cheaper, cost no gas, and out-damage Hydras vs M&M. They're also faster. So they win.

Hydras in SC2, at BlizzCon 09, did 8+4 vs. Armored. That's 3 extra damage to Marines, and 7 extra vs. Marauders. While I'd probably still invest in Banelings (AoE), Hydras aren't quite as bad against M&M as they used to be.

But here's the thing: you can't really replace these basic units. They're the very essence of the Zerg. You can improve them, (such as giving the Ultalisk a cleaving attack or giving the Zergling a new morph) but you can't replace them. (The replacements would basically have to just be the exact same unit as it's replacing.)

Finally, finally, someone gets it!

Without Spore Cloud the Overseer is pretty bland, and Neural Parasite is the only cool spell the Infestor has got (Fungal whatever looks promising, though). The Queen is okay as far as a macro mechanic, but as a spellcaster/base defense unit she's bland as heck.

I'm still a bit iffy on it, but the Overseer's acid-spore like ability is something to be investigated. My main problem with it is the lack of an appropriate AoE unit to exploit it. You might be able to combo them with Mutalisks, but it'd be good if there was a ground unit to do it (Baneling's don't count, because they only attack once).

I will say this: Blizzard clearly is working on the Zerg spellcaster abilities. So it's not like they seem satisfied or anything.

Now, in SC2, it seems blizzard wants to force the player to tech to tier-3 technologies in other to compete with the protoss and terran.

To be fair, it was not the intention of Blizzard to make SC1's Zerg so reliant on Tier 2.

As I stated before, Zerg in SC1 rely on it so much because teching to Tier 3 is so costly. You have to build a useless building (Queen's Nest), another useless building (Hive), and then, finally, you can get what you were actually trying.

With Infestors being so much more useful than SC1 Queens, I'm fairly sure you're going to see the Zerg having a lot more access to Tier 3 than before.

[SoFool]

Hydralisks weren't good at M&M because:

1: Zerglings are really good at M&M.

2: They did explosive damage, so they got their 10 damage cut in half vs. small units. Like M&M.

5 damage from a Hydralisk is nothing compared to 5 damage from a Zergling. 'Lings are cheaper, cost no gas, and out-damage Hydras vs M&M. They're also faster. So they win.

Hydras in SC2, at BlizzCon 09, did 8+4 vs. Armored. That's 3 extra damage to Marines, and 7 extra vs. Marauders. While I'd probably still invest in Banelings (AoE), Hydras aren't quite as bad against M&M as they used to be.

Yea I already know they don't deal full dmg to smaller units, that's why mnm kinda pwn them.
I forgot about the current sc2 hydra's bonus dmg vs armored units, thx for reminding me.

[electricmole]

But here's the thing: you can't really replace these basic units. They're the very essence of the Zerg. You can improve them, (such as giving the Ultalisk a cleaving attack or giving the Zergling a new morph) but you can't replace them. (The replacements would basically have to just be the exact same unit as it's replacing.)

Why? vultures, goliaths, wraiths, dragoons, etc.. were also basic units. but they had it removed.

The replacements would basically have to just be the exact same unit as it's replacing? Clearly you want the same zerg play style from sc1 in sc2. Vulture, dragoons, etc were effective in sc1 just as any of the 6 zerg units said, and yet they got axed.

Very essence of the zerg? since when? imo since starcraft 1, blizzard can easily make NEW zerg "essence" units for sc2 if they wanted to and you will easily forget most of those sc1 zerg units such as the guardian, hydralisk , etc.

but unfortunately, blizzard did not take much risk changing most of the zerg lineup in sc2 unlike for both toss and terran.

i can't believe there was'nt much of new zerg evolution after 4 years lorewise and 10 years gameplay wise.