The Zerg Problem -- Statistical Analysis

[pure.Wasted]

The foundation of this assessment is faulty. You're basically working under the belief that "for a race to be interesting, its units must be interesting."

This is easily undermined with 2 things. Zerglings are boring. They're just tiny melee units that do huge damage. Hydralisks are pretty boring too; standard ranged units with ground and air attacks. Ultralisks are just units with lots of HP. And so on. The Zerg were always the least "interesting" race, by the metric you're using. Hell, the only siege-range unit they had was a flying piece of crap called the Guardian; building those things most of the time is a waste of gas. None of these units are as nifty or cute as anything the Terrans have, with their Siege Mode and Spider Mines and Stim Paks and such.

So clearly, what made the Zerg interesting in SC1 was not the coolness of their units.

The foundation of your assessment is equally faulty -- you assume that if the units were not directly responsible for the race's appeal in the original game, doing nothing to update them in a sequel ten years newer is acceptable, and does not diminish our interest.

Every unit in SC1 was new. This cannot be overstated, and you must understand that we are NOT talking about the pro game here exclusively. While I believe that the Zerg lack of choice in harassment is a genuine problem for gameplay, revamping units is also necessary to make the game appeal to casual gamers and critics.

The Zerg units should wow me; it is not the Zerg racial identity that their units should be lame. The new ones are hit-and-miss. The old ones don't even try. Not the way the Zerg work, you say? And may I point you to the Roach and Baneling, which, with their Burrow micro, provide great gameplay? May I point you to the Lurker in BW (and still), which was a breath of fresh air and innovative gameplay?

May I point you to all the units that aren't this interesting? The Baneling and Roach prove that the race can be simple and bring new gameplay to the table at the same time. Cliff-walking, because of its micro-intensive potential, is the burrow-equivalent for units that don't have an activated ability, perfect for Zerg. There is absolutely no reason why 3/4 of the Zerg units cannot be as interesting on the battlefield as the Roach. I repeat, having boring units is not and should not be part of the Zerg identity. I can accept that 10 years ago it was more difficult for Blizzard to come up with gameplay for units that was both simple and involving.

This isn't ten years ago anymore. They have all the tools in the world to complete this task.

The other thing that undermines your point is what actually makes the Zerg an interesting race: their mechanics. Larva production means fast tech switches. Zergling to Hydra/Lurk to Lurker/'Ling, to Ultra/'Ling. Or back and forth. Whatever. It takes nothing for the Zerg to be able to do this kind of dance.

The Zerg in SC1 lived and died by how well the player used the race's mechanics. If you could manage your larva properly, you were doing great. If you couldn't, you're dead. You're as dead as a Protoss player who can't Psi Storm, or a Terran player who can't 'Mech.

In SC2, the Zerg have many new mechanics. Spawn Larva, creep movement speed, Creep spreading + Tier 2 Nydus and so on. Hell, you could even consider having the Overlord speed + drop in one research to be a substantially new mechanic, as it allows for much faster Overlord drop tech (not having to contend with slow drops and other stupid things).

What's worse than your underestimating of the value of interesting and fresh gameplay, the mechanics you claim are the heart of the race are lame at best. The only thing that even REMOTELY compares to Warp-In is the Nydus Worm, and that experiment isn't doing so well these days. Last time we heard about it, it was ridiculously overpowered. This time... we don't hear about it at all. What's that say?

If the Zerg are so mechanics-focused as you suggest, they should be putting the other races to shame with their cool new mechanics. Salvage is discussed with more interest than the Nydus Worm these days, let alone any other Zerg "mechanics."

Mutalisks, cost for cost, ought to be the best harassment in the game. And they're not even dedicated to that task; they have many functions that they can perform.

This was addressed on page 1, but you seem to have missed it. Allow me to quote my responses to the "Mutalisk problem":

1. The Overlord was the ultimate detector, but Blizzard made it lose functionality because that was not good gameplay. Likewise, Medics were replaced higher in the tech tree because having something that WORKS doesn't mean it's something GOOD for the game. If the Mutalisk concept is so detrimental to the Zerg having other harassing options (something I don't believe) it may need to go the way of the Medic.

2. Having more options never hurt anyone. Except the player on the other end. Mutalisks are micro-intensive. Macro players are hard-pressed to find options for a unit that can harass successfully, and don't have as many options that are as viable as the Terrans or Protoss. This is especially counter-intuitive because the Zerg are supposed to be the macro-intensive race, and yet their harassment options are limited completely to micro-intensive stacked hit and runs. It's not a bad thing by any means to offer diversity by offering alternatives... but the Mutalisk is not an alternative. It's practically the only option.

Siege

Siege is something the Zerg have always pretty much had to do without. In SC1, they never had any truly effective form of siege unit.

It's a racial propensity, like how Protoss units have more total Hp per unit cost than most other races. Doing away with this just weakens their niche. The Zerg should be able to deal with things that other races need Siege to deal with. Dark Swarm was the Zerg equivalent of siege.

Early-midgame harassment is something the Protoss have always pretty much had to do without. Except now they got the Stalker and the Disurptor, and both of those units are exciting and make Protoss gameplay more interesting. They give the player choices.

Did that addition... weaken their niche?

Did the addition of a unit that doesn't die to AoE (Roach) weaken the Zerg niche? Did the removal of easy detection (Overlord) weaken the Zerg niche?

Just because something was a racial trait the first time around doesn't mean it was so for good reason.

That's exactly what the Zerg need. A cheap, ranged, massable, unit that can go anywhere.

It really doesn't get more imbalanced than that. Cheap, generalist ranged (GtG and GtA), and go anywhere are three separate properties. Any unit should only ever two of them. Even the Mutalisk is fairly expensive at 100 gas.

As for Lurker cliff-climbing, especially with a move to Tier 2... seriously, do you want to give other races an actual chance at all?

No. What I want is for the Zerg to be able to do things that force a T or P to react dramatically, completely altering their BO... WITHOUT USING MUTAS. A Terran player sees Hydras? He should be scared, he should start getting counters, the same way a Protoss player that sees Siege Tanks starts getting Immortals.

People were scared of tier 1 spellcasters for Protoss. "There's no way to counter this this early!" And you know what? Everyone survived. Except now people see Disruptors, they get worried.

Good.

Talk about a failure of imagination. Baneling Bombing runs from Overlords into your mineral patch. That's an option. And here's another: Nydus Drop.

Before you start fixing a problem, you should explore the current conditions to see if the problem actually exists.

You want to count Baneling Bombs from Overlords? Okay. Prepare to add Medivac Marines as harassing units for Terrans.... Medivac Marauders as harassing units for Terrans.... Matrix'ed Battlecruisers with upgrade for 8x8 attack against workers for Terrans.

This is ridiculous. I have plenty of imagination, but some units are fun to use and others are not. If you cannot tell the difference between Roach micro and Hydralisk lack thereof no amount of imagination is going to help.

And, more importantly, why call it a Hydralist at all? Why not just make up a unit from scratch?

Why call the Ghost a Ghost? No Ghost in SC1 Nuked, let alone Sniped or EMPed. Why call the Overlord an Overlord? Overlords had detection, and didn't have creep drop. The Hydralisk is still an early-game ranged GtG/GtA unit that transforms into a mid-game AoE GtG unit. I'm pretty sure that's a lot more similar to the original than the Ghost.

And I would replace it. It's a dull, uninteresting unit, exactly like its original counterpart when it has no right being that in a game 10 years newer. I'd also replace the Mutalisk, Brood Lord, and Ultralisk (not all together, but any couple of the bunch). Blizzard isn't willing to do this. That much is obvious. Hydras are not going anywhere. It's much more productive to propose changes than it is replacements, because one has a shot of making it into the game (for good reason) and the other does not.

So, the Hydralisk should be... what exactly? A GtG specialist?[/b] So what do the Zerg use for GtA now?

Talk about your lack of imagination. Just earlier on this page we were discussing making the Hydralisk, at least in part, a siege unit. Just give it the range, lengthen its attack cooldown, decrease its movement speed, and you've got yourself a unit that's dangerous around cliffs where it can maneuver, and like a fish out of water on flat terrain. Give it +armored and they become very good at taking out the air units that Corruptors can't -- keep in mind, we do want the Zerg to have to get Corruptors every once in a while. Hydras shouldn't be the Zerg Goliath.

That's just ONE solution. The Hydra gains a far less generic role on the ground, but maintains its unique GtA role as well. Every single thing it does can come with a price, and that's okay. The Roach can't hit air. The Lurker can't stop moving and attack that very second. It's okay for the Hydra to have a distinct disadvantage, too.

Um, Nydus. You know, one of those harassment methods you're on about?

Nydus can't harass. It can lay siege. (and I'm not talking about siege units, I'm talking about totally overrunning an enemy base) By nature of the three-pronged assault, it must inherently be a full on assault. The Zerg are able to do damage because they attack from range, from OUTSIDE of the enemy base, and once the defenders come around to attack... they hop QUICKLY into a Nydus, hope out of another on the other end, and attack. They do this until the enemy splits up his forces to defend both at the same time, at which point the Zerg takes advantage of the fact that his force is combined and his enemy's is divided.

Any of this sound like raiding a mineral line to you?

Ghosts. Tier 1. Queens. Tier 1. Hell, you can have a Queen out right when 'Lings pop. The Protoss didn't bring the first anything.

And what do Ghosts do in Tier 1, exactly? Snipe is no more a caster ability than the Thor's 250mm cannons... unless you wanna call that guy a caster? That leaves EMP shot. Which is useful, in Tier 1, in 1/3 of the match-ups. What a caster. Definitely no difference between him and a guy that casts Hallucination and Force Field.

As for the Queen? Her abilities: Spawn Larvae (macro =! caster), Create Creep Tumor (macro =! caster), Transfusion. So she heals things.

Yes. I can definitely see where people would get confused. There is absolutely no difference between having a macro unit in tier 1, and having a battle spellcaster capable of terrain denial and manipulation on the battlefield.

Obviously you and I have very varying definitions of "spell caster," as pertains to the purposes of this discussion. The point was always that the Protoss brought the first THREATENING spellcaster to Tier 1, a spellcaster that could do things in battle that would require significant countering. Turns out that that it does require countering, but it's not the end of the world, either.

Technically, the Protoss don't have a cliff-climbing unit at all. They have a teleporting unit. The difference being that, unlike Reaper cliff climbing, Blink is useful for more than going up and down cliffs.

Further, like any good mechanic, the ability to materialize is something that can be stopped. If you don't like them showing up in your base, you should invest in some anti-air to kill those pesky Warp Prisms. Whereas the only way to stop Stalkers from Blinking in is to kill their spotter (if the map requires is such that you need one).

(the Colossus can cliff-climb; I knew I wrote all those units out in the original post for a reason!)

So what you're trying to say is that... the Stalker's Blink is much more versatile than cliff-climb, meaning that the Stalker's Blink, available in tier 1, is much more powerful than Hydralisk cliff-walking would be.

Which is obviously the reason you said Hydralisks with cliff-climb would be terribly imbalanced earlier.

Wait, what?

And yes, your argument of pointing out that the Protoss units are even more fun to use than I suggested is greatly succeeding at showing me that Zerg units don't need to be updated at all. Hugely successful there.

I'll take Nydus over cliff-climbing anything any day of the week. The Zerg are all about cool mechanics. If you don't like that, then go play Terran or something.

I'll make sure I go let the Lurker and Roach know that their battle-micro isn't wanted.

See, that's the difference between a balanced idea (Nydus) and an imbalanced one (Hydralisk cliff-climbing). One of these can actually be fought against, has built-in strengths and weaknesses, and so forth; while the other cannot be stopped.

Uh, yeah. According to Dustin Browder, Nydus Worm 3-pronged assault is unstoppable.

Whereas, you know, the maneuverability a unit gains by running over cliffs is obviously so powerful that we can't have any of that in the game. So those Reapers and those Stalkers and all them flying units like Mutalisks, we're gonna have to cut 'em down to size.

If you nerf the Hydralisk to the point where it's reasonable to make them cliff-climbers, you basically screw up Zerg flexibility. If they want to use an alternate route into someone's base, they have to make these crappy Climbolisks that are either expensive or weak. The only good part about them is that they can cliff climb. This is a useless unit if you're not interested in cliff climbing. That's not how the Zerg work.

Zerg flexibility? Um, last I checked, the Marine was more flexible than the Zergling, the Stalker was more flexible than the Hydralisk, the Banshee was more flexible than the Brood Lord, the Viking was more flexible than the Corruptor, and the Thor was more flexible than the Ultralisk.

Is the Lurker flexible? No more than the Siege Tank. Is the Roach any more flexible than the Immortal? And the Baneling is possibly the most un-flexible unit in the game.

The Zerg flexibility has absolutely nothing to do with their units being flexible, and everything with their PRODUCTION BUILDINGS being flexible. But even if, for the sake of argument, I were to grant that the Zerg units are far more flexible than their Terran and Protoss counterparts...

We already had this with the Medics. Just because that's how the game was doesn't mean that's good for the game. If the generalization of specific Zerg units is getting in the way of them acquiring interesting gameplay tactics (and yes, this is true for many, Hydralisk being foremost), then it's time we cut down on that generalization.

Alternately, simply add to it. Nothing was taken from the Battlecruiser. Nothing was taken from the Stalker. Nothing was taken from the Brood Lord (the most revamped of the non-revamped). They all gained functionality, and the price went up or down accordingly.




This is what the logic you're using boils down to: had someone come to you before the original WWI announcement and said "Dragoons get Blink," you would have said, "That's ridiculous, they become overpowered." And had that person gone on to say, "They lose some HP to compensate," you'd respond, "That's even more ridiculous, they're now useless in battle."

You won't know until it's tried. You're trying to tell me that there's something inherently flawed with the concept of a Hydralisk that can cliff-climb, as if tweaking of numbers could never solve anything, and that is beyond absurd.

[electricmole]

i already made multiple threads about this since the zerg was revealed. the zerg in sc2 almost feels, looks, and plays like the zerg in sc1.

Seriously this is apparent. and sc1 zerg gameplay fanboys disagree easily and blizzard didn't take much risk on changing the zerg. unfortunately.

PROBLEM IS 6 CORE ZERG ATTACK UNITS FROM SC1 ARE BACK AGAIN IN SC2 with almost similar functions and role. mass hydras and mutualisk again. ATG siege with the broodlord. etc. damn

[Gifted]

... I approve of this wall of text... with this much work, you should have sent it into the staff for editorial examination

[Santrega]

I see the muta listed as a potent harasser, but i dont see it listed as an actual unit. It was counted as a unit though, but I'm wondering where you put it in the change categories.

I do agree that the zerg seem to have been made really boring.

The fun it looked like we could have with nydus worms for example in the start would have been quite enough to make zerg new and exciting without any other unit, but then they went and ruined it.

However, the hydralisk is a generalist unit because it can attack both air and ground units and has a melee/ranged attack. The archon has the same ability, therefore is a generalist unit as well. The only difference is the range they attack with, but that really doesnt matter.

I dont like the idea of a hydralisk climbing cliffs, and still today would prefer the ability to climb cliffs be given to a zergling upgrade, similar to the baneling upgrade. Bring the wings back and give it to them with cliff climbing. The zerglings would provide a much better swarm feel to coming at all angles with masses of lings, especially with the new pathing.

[Blazur]

PROBLEM IS 6 CORE ZERG ATTACK UNITS FROM SC1 ARE BACK AGAIN IN SC2 with almost similar functions and role. mass hydras and mutualisk again. ATG siege with the broodlord. etc. damn

Couldn't agree more. Since the original unveiling the Zerg have been on a steady decline in terms of interesting and fun abilities, and they're getting closer and closer to the Zerg of SC1. This has been a huge disappointment with me and I'm glad this thread was created with such a thorough analysis of the underwhelming composition of the race.

We should create a thread polling SCL readers about their thoughts on the race as a whole. Not on their effectiveness, but rather how fun or interesting they feel in the transition from SC1 to SC2. I can only hope the development team is reading threads like these and is aware of the communities general disinterest of the Zerg of SC2.

[flabortast]

Sorry guys, got to agree with Nicol on this one.

[electricmole]

i for one would like 65% of the zerg unit line up and battle mechanics overhauled just for the sake of making them more exciting and fun in sc2. both hydralisk and mutualisk are kinda annoying (look, feel, and playstyle) now for me. ultras are awesome now with theier splash damage, but i expected a new bigger monstrosity. yeh that's right the zerg lacks new monstrosity and evolution.

keep the zergling. the small lings are fun no matter what.

i have some crazy zerg ideas but i think im gonna make a new thread for it.

the sc2 walking spore and sunken colony looks sissy as well. i think the need to look bulkier and intimidating just like in sc1.

[Blazur]

i have some crazy zerg ideas but i think im gonna make a new thread for it.

Please do! I'd love to see them, and also see what other ideas people on this forum have dreamed up for the Zerg.

[Justamonster]

Sorry guys, got to agree with Nicol on this one.

Yeah, Nicobol provided some decent reasoning. But I’d say it could be valid only about SC1 with Nydus Worm in it.

I can’t estimate how much can cliff-climbing Hydra change the gameplay in positive way (for every race), but without a doubt, the Zerg desperately needs to change in more than one way. And p.Wasted showed it clearly enough.

[B~E]

Technically, the Protoss don't have a cliff-climbing unit at all. They have a teleporting unit. The difference being that, unlike Reaper cliff climbing, Blink is useful for more than going up and down cliffs.

Let the hydralisk move while burrowed. Because thats not climbing anymore.