Force Field, a bit ridiculous, and harmful to game design

[JackhammerIV]

Well banshees and mutas serve slightly different roles. Both are air harass and usually meant to force the opponent to get some static defense and/or detection. Both are meant to keep the opponent back into their base and gain map control.

Mutas however can keep map control longer than banshees can. They're also quicker. The banshee can be used in straight up fights with its DPS. Mutalisks can't as they're a bit too fragile.

[Todie]

Just played a game, and again seriously need more units versatile units.

The Terran guy spawned pretty close to me. I stopped him from expanding so many times. Yet he was still able to push out with a sizable siege tank / marine force. EVen though I killed most of it with lings (sniping siege tanks as we were moving out) I still lost a war of attrition even though I had 3 bases going against his 2.

[...]
You just can't do anything against mass marines when he's got tons of siege tanks. I had ling / baneling mix and mutalisks.

Yes its very hard to relly on baneling to crowdcontrol marines midgame. nothing wrong with sprinkling a few on or going bigger on them to hit certain timing attack to guarntee taking out a PF or whatnot, but overall, its much easier to be cost-effective with Infestor + ling (and mb roach)

When I try to harass with mutas all he needed to do was plop down a missile turret and frigging REPAIR IT. How ridiculous is that? Banshees get cloak and 6 range, Mutas get 3 range and a counter that can be easily repaired long enough for your marines to move in.

the ability to suddenly get enough mutas to go deep with harassment is a great card to have on hand, but its not easy to do, and you kinda cant half-ass it; you need a force strong enough to brake repaired turrets. 1-2 attack-grades help alot in achieving that, and generally the number to aim for is around 15.

... it might be good to go harass with an early pack of 5ish mtuas while quality & quantity of turrets and marines might stillbe low,but if repelled, its fine to hold off on muta production 'til you spot a window where you can abuse a dedicateed anti-ground composition (too much marauder/tank,few marines, turrets, thors) and / or when you can afford getting the magic number of mutas to put on the hurt with -without getting obliterated by some frontal attack.

.... with the buffed infestor its increasingly possible to play a cost-effective defensive midgame ZvT witch can open up fora lategame under more conrolled circumstances, witch can favour you if you use ultras and/or broodlords the right way.


.... i agree that clsoespawn is a bitch,but if you get a 3rd base up, ZvT is fine IMO, and this thread isnt even supposed to be about that? :P

[TheEconomist]

Wankey without Force Field in-game

"Wankey: Blizzard has been taken over by a bunch of uncreative monkeys! They should have added a spell to block off chokes to prevent early Terran aggression and to make larger battles more intersting .. s, something like, a force field. Yeah, that seems to fit the Protoss well."

*insert force field theorycrafting with made up duration and energy cost*


Honestly, Force Field is one of the most interesting mechanics in the game. Do not mess with it. I haven't seen anything that is even remotely imbalanced or hard to counter.

[protoswarrior]

To supplement this discussion, I think Zergs need to use tunneling claws more and add infestors later. After watching the interview about HoTS and based on numerous progamer VODs and replays I have watched, I think that using the roach as a midgame army core is the best solution to all problems related to zerg.

Roaches are like freaking Lego for Zerg. They can be used in every situation except vs air, but for that, u just need queens and a few hydras. This is a very broad observation, so I hope no one comes and says "well hydras suck, so your 'solution' is bad" or whatever. I am asking people to read in between the lines and add appropriate context.

What I mean is that you can use Tier 2 roaches to do almost anything for ground-damage. They're like extremely buffed zerglings. You can use them in nydus play, drops, alone with burrow-move, in deathball-like groups, in chunks spread all over the place to deal damage in multiple places at once, or as front-line. They're also excellent midgame stalling units until hive tech, and even after that, they're the best ground complement to Hive tech units.

So, I think Zerg should really start using roaches as more of a core unit than before. Forget a core of 50-50 roach/hydra, or 2/3 roach or 3/4 roach and the rest in hydras and/or ling/infestor. Use pure roach as the core and use them smartly. Don't run them into a freaking deathball. Also, since a deathball at 175 food or so takes time, Zerg SHOULD take bases and force Protoss to spread out as much as possible. Expo Sauron style. This style is even more appropriate for SC2 than it was for SC1...

[Wankey]

Wankey without Force Field in-game

"Wankey: Blizzard has been taken over by a bunch of uncreative monkeys! They should have added a spell to block off chokes to prevent early Terran aggression and to make larger battles more intersting .. s, something like, a force field. Yeah, that seems to fit the Protoss well."

*insert force field theorycrafting with made up duration and energy cost*


Honestly, Force Field is one of the most interesting mechanics in the game. Do not mess with it. I haven't seen anything that is even remotely imbalanced or hard to counter.

Another pointless Tychus Findlay post. I've never ever suggested anything of the sort anywhere. No spell should solve any solution. My idea would've been to buff certain units that would stop making early terran agression to win the game so easily. Blocking off things with a click is one of the worst design ideas in any game. It's gimmicky gameplay, rather than thinking about how to counter early terran aggression, you just get one unit. One unit solution, and neatly presented by the designers.

War doesn't have these kinds of solutions. Did Spartans have force fields in 300? Did Germans have force fields on D-Day? Force fields don't make things fun to watch, and as much as this is eSports, all sports are geared for gameplay (they've changed rules in hockey / basketball to encourage better spectatorship which involves around gameplay). With movement stopping spells and no risk spells, there is no real back and forth. Plague you could plague your own units, that's the risk but plague is such a good spell, since plaguing your own units as zerg isn't that big of a deal since zerg can rebuild units so quickly, but plaguing terran or toss means a HUGE difference since toss can't repair and terran have to fall back. This one spell has like 50 different facets of its design.

Forcefield has been designed to be a requirement, not an option. You need to use it to stop early aggression rather than actually buffing units so good micro can stop it. It isn't beneficial to gameplay because if you have energy in force field, you dictate the game, and once you have no energy, you're at a massive weakness, that's such a slippery slope in game design and is mainly the reason of Starcraft 2 having one or two big battles and then GG.

[Gradius]

Another pointless Tychus Findlay post. I've never ever suggested anything of the sort anywhere.

The OP is more or less a giant disguised balance whine.

[Arkalis]

Leave it like that

[Genopath]

Thing is you need at least 5-6 sentrys to do a viable FF retreat. That's 500 gas right there. That's 20 roaches worth of gas lol. Early and mid game they make the difference in PvZ but late game they are not worth their cost. In PvT, again its usefullness is on early to midgame. You only need a couple of ghosts to get rid of sentry's energy. Mid game the game is decided by Vikings and Collosi since MMM ball destroys toss gateway units.

[Twilice]

I shall, show you the light! In how you can easy defeat a heavy forcefield protoss! (remember, infestors are imba)
Also queens are good in case he goes for air units or whatever he can go.

[Todie]

gonna look at taht later twilice.

Wankey: i feel, all thats left to do is to quote day[9] in a hillariously embaracing context: it is what it is