Patch 1.3.3 PTR Notes - Updated 04/25

[hyde]

This is going to destroy that pvt 3 gate aggressive expo strat. Was actually a decent build. :[

Anyway, I have never used an Archon in PvT, opting to save high templar for more storms. Could care less about that change. And as with every patch, here is my obligatory protoss-biased Hitler rant:

Man that was hilarious. I don't know why, but Hitler jokes never fail to make me laugh. Everyone here at the school library is staring at me now.

I feel the Ghost buff is needed. They're still horribly expensive and almost useless in early game due to a lack of DPS/meatshields. The micro required for snipe is also a bit tedious and prone to mis-clicks. The time to get cloak or the reactor upgrade is also ridiculous. You can't seriously get 2-3 Ghosts without severely slowing down your tech. At least with this, you can transition to Factory or even get Marauders without stretching resources thin.
I still want Snipe to get buffed to at least target probes. We can snipe Marines in Powered combat suits, Ultralisks, Mutalisks, but not probes..!? How about change Snipe to all Biological and Light units?

[RamiZ]

I wonder when they will make the adjustments to make Carrier and MS usable to at least some degree...

Still can't believe people think that MS isn't usable. It is more than viable, saw it in many games on top level. Kiwikaki was using it, White-Ra, San won over NesTea with it, so yes, Mothership can be useful, but as everyone said, it can be countered easily.

[Peanutbutter]

Carriers are a good counter for Thors in PvT, if you can afford it.

Yeah, but that's about the only unit they're good against. They're godly against unupgraded marines, but that's it.

Other than that, Carriers are a huge investment.

[Hunter_I]

How can a unit, that needs a huge investment, takes a lot of time to build and is easily countered by cheaper units that are standard on the batlfield anyway be consdered useful?
Don't forget that the inerceptors are easily shot down with either stimmed marines or hydra, and both viking and corruptor have huge dmg vs the carrier.

Unless your MS and carriers are a complete surprice to the enemy (what are the chances of this happenineg...) they would fail meserably to to a much cheaper unit composition.

[JackhammerIV]

How can a unit, that needs a huge investment, takes a lot of time to build and is easily countered by cheaper units that are standard on the batlfield anyway be consdered useful?
Don't forget that the inerceptors are easily shot down with either stimmed marines or hydra, and both viking and corruptor have huge dmg vs the carrier.

Unless your MS and carriers are a complete surprice to the enemy (what are the chances of this happenineg...) they would fail meserably to to a much cheaper unit composition.

Like I said carriers do ok vs hydras. I've tried them before against a zerg going hydra. Once you reach a certain amount hydras can't deal with it anymore. Especially since you have a ground army under the carriers. They do ok vs vikings as well. 2 carriers can 1 shot a viking. Takes roughly 20 vikings to one shot a carrier. Takes about 19 corruptors with corruption spell on carrier to one shot a carrier. Takes roughly 3 carriers to one shot a corruptor.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Carrier
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Corruptor
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Viking

If they don't overcompensate with corruptors and vikings and you get up a good amount of carriers they will just die. Realistically it's more common for the terran to do this. Zerg frequently have to overcompensate. Terran would be more likely to undermake vikings. Even if they have a lot of marines, having a good ground army as well can help combat that. Time spent attacking interceptors is time for the ground army to kill them.

And one base carrier can work alright vs terran. Wouldn't recommend it as a standard strategy though.

[Twilice]

Carriers are not worth it, why? Because their stupid interceptors die and you have to rebuild them all the time which makes you very poor. I am surprised every time that I get a lot of gas over when I try for a carrier build. . .

[Todie]

i bet carreirs can be used costeffectively.. the fragility of intecetors just calls to attention how you use them, specifically how you use them along wih other units, when you engage and when you disengage, etc.

.. i cant even pretend to be decent about mechanicaly managing a protoss game but if i were to use carriers i'd try for a defensive playstyle, invest in upgrades even for shields and air armor, engage mostly with hit/runs - only seek conflict head-on if /when able to cripple the enemy from a defensive position first, or able to get a decent flank off; if im 'a be launching interceptors all above and around the battlefield for the enemy to shoot at, i'd be eager to have some zealots up in there slicing and dicing most asaply.

... i cant say this with confidence, but i sense, carriers cant be massed for the win effectively as they sometimes could in sc/bw, but that is kind of the point.

[JackhammerIV]

i bet carreirs can be used costeffectively.. the fragility of intecetors just calls to attention how you use them, specifically how you use them along wih other units, when you engage and when you disengage, etc.

.. i cant even pretend to be decent about mechanicaly managing a protoss game but if i were to use carriers i'd try for a defensive playstyle, invest in upgrades even for shields and air armor, engage mostly with hit/runs - only seek conflict head-on if /when able to cripple the enemy from a defensive position first, or able to get a decent flank off; if im 'a be launching interceptors all above and around the battlefield for the enemy to shoot at, i'd be eager to have some zealots up in there slicing and dicing most asaply.

... i cant say this with confidence, but i sense, carriers cant be massed for the win effectively as they sometimes could in sc/bw, but that is kind of the point.

I was messing with carriers against zerg a month ago. FFE into carriers. Rushing for 3-3-3 carriers. Won quite a bit. A zerg tried to focus down my carriers with hydras so i just moved them back and let his hydras run right into my stalker-zeal army. I gave it up though. Cos i realised a fully upgraded Ultra has 6 armor. I had 5 carriers focusing down an ultra and it took so damn long. And most of the time my ground army end up being sacrificial units then i kill zerg with 5+ carriers.

Plus stalker, colossi, templar tech, mothership gives zerg way way more trouble than carriers. Stalkers are a big reason why protoss can win lategame PvZ.

@Twilice
Having too much gas shows something is wrong. I get up to 3 bases and 2-3 stargates + double cyber core + 1 forge. All air and shield upgrades. I end up having too much minerals. Good i guess cos I just defend with mass cannons everywhere.

[Twilice]

The problem is that you usually have to start with some kind of phoenix harassment and then go for carriers.

I guess I have to try and experiment with it a bit more. Going for directly expand / charge / blink after phoenix harras. And then when he starts to get a more roach heavy army opt for carriers. (but it just feels that going for robo in those situations is much more powerfull)

It could also be that you must be more precise with where you position the carriers and the timing, I tend to try to go for mothership, but that means 1 less carrier and a delayed attack. This could be the problem for me.

[JackhammerIV]

The problem is that you usually have to start with some kind of phoenix harassment and then go for carriers.

I guess I have to try and experiment with it a bit more. Going for directly expand / charge / blink after phoenix harras. And then when he starts to get a more roach heavy army opt for carriers. (but it just feels that going for robo in those situations is much more powerfull)

It could also be that you must be more precise with where you position the carriers and the timing, I tend to try to go for mothership, but that means 1 less carrier and a delayed attack. This could be the problem for me.

I just do the super turtle protoss style. FFE then just sit in my base. Start upgrades. I get hallucinate and if i see him taking a third/fourth i move to take my third. I get double stargate then fleet beacon and cannon up. Cannon air attack paths and main ramps. Like 6-7 cannons each. Get third up. I timed it roughly so that fleet beacon finishes as I got +1 +1 for air and a second cyber core is done or finishing. Shields would be getting +2 at that point. If i can fit in blink i do so now. I get 4 carriers then i rally stargates to carriers. At that point hopefully with good chrono i have at least +2 +2 +2 carriers. Then i keep upgrading. Hotkey all of them so i can jump to them and quickly chrono. I keep making carriers and chronoing carriers.

My ground army usually melts to nothing but I have like 6 carriers up by then and unless they blindly went mass corruptor they can't do much. Especially since i went tons of upgrades on the carriers makes them even more resilient. And all the cannons discourage any counterattack. If he tries with lings i just warp in zeals and it's cleared up. If he goes with roaches i just rerally the stargates to that and warp in units to delay. Cannons benefit from shield upgrades as well.

Then i fly my carriers around and kill zerg's shit. Basically a 3 base timing attack with mass upgraded carriers. Only problem i had is when mutas found a hole in my cannon defense.