How the *bleep* are you supposed to be a maxed thor / tank army as zerg???

[Wankey]

This match up is fucking absolutely bullshit. I had 4 bases to his 3 base and I had maxed army with tons of banelings / roaches and infestor support.

He just A-moved into my base.

That's just absolutely fucking bullshit. If it was mass bioball, at least banelings would be useful, but mass thor / siege tank. The design is just fucked up, you can't go air because thors obliterate your mutas. And by the time you get broodlords, he would've scanned your base repeatedly and already gotten vikigns (after he olibterated my roach / baneling army he went straight for marines / vikings)

WTF are you suppsoed to go? Ultras are absolutely useless again, in this situation siege tanks just eat them up. The only thing that would help is plague and dark swarm but none of those are in this fucking game.

I hate how Zerg is SUPPOSED to lose to maxed armies. I literally threw 400 worth of supply at this bullshit army, and he just tanked it with his thors and blew me up with his siege tanks. WTF do you go? Mass lings? I have no fucking clue, how is this any indication of balance?

ANd guess what? With a few SCVs, his THORS REGEN LIKE ROACHES at 1/10 of the price of a thor. So you can pretty much repair 10 thors for the price of one.

It's pretty bullshit how weak zerg ground forces are. I would've had to go brood lords to beat this matchup, you know how much of an investment that is? The amount of investment the terran had to go to Thor was AN ARMORY oh baby stop me here.

Why is it that Terran has incredibly strong ground and incredibly strong air at the end game while I have a shitty ground army and a strong AIR TO GROUND flyer that gets picked off by anything more than a medivac.

Mutas need to be changed, they're absolutely useless now. Thors / infestors / marines / blink stalkers eat them up in no time. There are just way too many units that obliterate the muta for it to be a generic air unit. Why aren't there that many units to obliterate marines?

Infestors just don't work with this matchup. Mass mech against zerg. What can you do? Zerg has nothing that beats armor, ultralisks get so easily tanked by thors with ton of tank backing.

It's just flipping bullshit how these races can simply A-move into you while you have to do multiple flanking maneuvers.

Have you ever tried to A-move into a terran siege ball? WTF do you do against a massive siege tank ball with thor / viking support?

Lets see, for Toss you can get blink stalkers / colossi, blink in blow shit up while colossi sit in the back blowing shit up. What exactly do you do for Zerg?

I tried literally everything. Banelings, obliterated, Zerglings, obliterated, Roach burrow movement (can't burrow undernearth deployed tanks) obliterated, 1000/1000 muta army, obliterated because then he had marines / thors.

WTF. This is great game design? He can jsut sit back while I throw everything at him?

I think the only thing that would've helped was nydus worms. They need to make it way cheaper to use, I would've probably used it.

[TheRabidDeer]

Mutas actually crush thors as long as you dont bunch them up. This is why most terran get mostly marines and a few thors, the threat of thors makes you spread your mutas out which makes them less effective against the marines. If its just thor though, muta would absolutely wreck them, then they would wreck the siege tanks. If he gets marine/thor you can try baneling drops.

I think tank/thor is basically the counter to baneling/roach/infestor... and basically it sounds like he was just 1 step ahead of you the whole time.

PS: 10 mutas isnt very much

[TheEconomist]

It's annoying, yes, but it's far from impossible. In fact, an immobile Terran army can often times work towards the advantage of the Zerg. But, you have to learn how to make that an advantage. And, to do that, you have to stop bitching about everything and try to work it out. Given your constant "bad gameplay design" statements, that is beyond you. You blame the game instead of yourself. Don't see how anyone in this topic, no matter how informative, can help you with that attitude.

[JackhammerIV]

So no replay at all. Probably might not even get moved to strategy. Why only 4 bases vs a 3 base mech terran?? As protoss against mech i get like 4-5 bases compared to his 3. How were the expansion timings?? Did you harass him at all to abuse his immobility??

Why compare thors to broods or ultras....they're not really at the same level of tech. Nyduses being way cheaper is just stupid. They're awesome. If i as protoss had that i'd just have a huge deathball that could insta transport to any base with nydus and use nydus to take far away bases.

Why complain about zerg design?? They're just made that way. Easy to swarm but weaker units. If you hate it then switch to protoss. Protoss maxed army is supposed to be the strongest.

Try the Spanishiwa build if you like. Try ovie baneling drops. Roach drops. Infestor fungal mineral lines. Multipronged aggression. Neural parasited thors. Or even go mass queens with broodlords/ultras.

You should have seen Spanishiwa go FundayMonday (no hydras, no roaches, no mutas, no banelings, only 12 lings). 2 base broodlord/spinecrawler/queen attacks. Units only died cos of missed transfuses. Even had corruptor/queen vs viking/scv repair wars. Took forever to kill one viking/corruptor.
http://www.justin.tv/spanishiwa/b/283935730

If what you're doing as zerg isn't working try something else. Zerg players have this habit of just crying imbalance instead of trying something else. It's not like you've exhausted all your options.

[Twilice]

Zerglings and broodlords + queens? I mean if he really had only thors and tanks it would have been free win. (judging by your post you were aware of his build for quite some time)

[Todie]

Tychus is right. Attitude is important in problem solving.

as for giving some concrete advice: do not throw a tantrum just because your opponent has been able to mount an army that you cat brake in a straight up fight.

someone who sits back to build a crit mass of slow high tech, high gas units makes you able to take more bases. do that. when the army of doom moves, counter-attack and/or wear it down with guerilla (infestor IT bombs to casue friendly-fire splash and hit/run with fungal/roach when unseiged) ... you can even anticipate losing the main base he moves on, just make sure youre evacuating what you can, rebuilding the crucial, and hurting him back meanwhile.

finally:

can't go air because thors obliterate your mutas. And by the time you get broodlords, he would've scanned your base repeatedly and already gotten vikigns (after he olibterated my roach / baneling army he went straight for marines / vikings)

muta readiness is great to have for whenever you spot a window where mutas you are able to build can overrun the AA he fields (becasue then, the'll kill the rest too) .. i wouldnt go mtuas vs Thors, but be ready to react with making lots of mutas as Thors gets killed

broodlords are actually good; supported by corrupter/muta/infstor they can be cost effective even in the face of vikings. if viking-count gets extreme, switch path again to take advantage...

its hard, its frustrating and it might be unfair, but there's always thigs in your game you can improve upon.

[sandwich_bird]

If you see him turtle to max out on thor + tank, go straight to broodlords. Get a few infestors to fungal whatever vikings he might pull out (and btw it's a lot harder than you think to tech switch and make a shit load of vikings) and clear them out with your unmorphed corruptors. When he moves out, also have a nydus or drop ready to deal some damage in his main/expo/weak spots with zerglings.

[Gradius]

Not sure how it works in ZvT, but in PvT you have to change your entire mindset instead of just unit composition. His attack will come later because tanks need a critical mass, so take more bases, get upgrades, build more workers. The absolute worst position you want to find yourself in is him surprising you by showing up at your doorstep with already-sieged tanks. Therefore you want to engage him when his army is on the move, so put spotter units by his base. I'm sure this is very important for Zerg since it gives you time to replenish your army because mech is so slow. If he sieges up in the middle of the map, drop his main. While your drop is ravaging his main, he will either retreat or attack you anyway, in which case you win if you hold the attack.

PS: Yeah post a replay.

[Genopath]

The design is just fucked up, you can't go air because thors obliterate your mutas. And by the time you get broodlords, he would've scanned your base repeatedly and already gotten vikigns (after he olibterated my roach / baneling army he went straight for marines / vikings)

I don’t agree, if design was so messed up then you would T constantly dominating Z on GSL and eSports which is not case. If he has Vikings you need Infestors and a few Corruptors. Watch TLO vs Morrow

I hate how Zerg is SUPPOSED to lose to maxed armies. I literally threw 400 worth of supply at this bullshit army, and he just tanked it with his thors and blew me up with his siege tanks. WTF do you go? Mass lings? I have no fucking clue, how is this any indication of balance?

Zerg has map control. Zerg can replenish it’s entire army and get it back to battlefield in a relatively short amount of time. This is the strategic strength of Zerg. You have the cheapest and least effective units in the game to compensate for this. Ultras with banelings usually obliterate must ground forces unless you picked a bad spot to attack.

ANd guess what? With a few SCVs, his THORS REGEN LIKE ROACHES at 1/10 of the price of a thor. So you can pretty much repair 10 thors for the price of one.

Unlike your roaches, this is certainly not very resource friendly for Terran. You also get to kill SCVs that could be used for harvesting.

It's pretty bullshit how weak zerg ground forces are. I would've had to go brood lords to beat this matchup, you know how much of an investment that is? The amount of investment the terran had to go to Thor was AN ARMORY oh baby stop me here.

True, but the Terran can only make 1 Thor per Factory with Techlab.

Why is it that Terran has incredibly strong ground and incredibly strong air at the end game while I have a shitty ground army and a strong AIR TO GROUND flyer that gets picked off by anything more than a medivac.

StarCraft II is not a game of a single fight with a X vs Y unit compositions. You trade strong units for map control and the ability to replenish your entire army.

Mutas need to be changed, they're absolutely useless now. Thors / infestors / marines / blink stalkers eat them up in no time. There are just way too many units that obliterate the muta for it to be a generic air unit.

They are mostly used for harass not for direct combat. Same thing with Phoenix and Banshee.

Why aren't there that many units to obliterate marines?

I do agree to an extent here. Marines are very useful and with proper micro it’s very hard to stop them.

Please post a replay.

[RamiZ]

Genopath pretty much covered your entire post. And I also agree that Marines are just way too much cost-effective...
Think outside of the Box, losing one game doesn't mean it is the end of the world. Maybe he played/macroed better, maybe you made some mistakes with macro/micro etc. ZvT is actually pretty balanced match-up if we take a look at the ZvP. I'm not the one that say that ZvP is completely broken, but it favors Protoss enough that weaker players can beat the stronger Zerg players.

Also, Mutas are far far from useless, they didn't change because of Infestor, they are same. Point is, you can use Mutas in some situation where you can't use Infestors, Mutas give you great map control, and also sniping Siege Tanks and reinforcement is possible unlike with Infestors. I still don't know why people whine about Protoss so much, when they stopped making Muta/Ling vs. them, and it is far better strategy now when HTs are nerfed.