4Gate will get fixed in patch 1.3.3

[JackhammerIV]

Not really. That could be a player's main, but, by that time, they've had to adjust to something that made the 4gate fail at least a few times. Diamond, however, at least in the lower parts, you can DEFINITELY get there on 4gate only.

Well someone has done it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/view...opic_id=191445

All you need is good 4gate and 4gate variants.

[TheEconomist]

What's sad is that I think you went and searched for that just to prove me wrong. What's funny though, is that 'not really' obviously means 'not very common'. Hence, a few people are an expected exception.

[Gradius]

I wouldn't mind the above change, as with faster gateway units I'd have more of a chance vs. Zergling & cannon rushes.

Not really. That could be a player's main, but, by that time, they've had to adjust to something that made the 4gate fail at least a few times. Diamond, however, at least in the lower parts, you can DEFINITELY get there on 4gate only.

As long as they win more than they lose, they wouldn't have to adjust so much as just spam more games. I think 4-gating to masters is def. possible. You need some sick timings & micro though to make it work. 4-gate isn't that easy to make work at those levels, nor is breaking a ramp in PvP against sentries.

[JackhammerIV]

What's sad is that I think you went and searched for that just to prove me wrong. What's funny though, is that 'not really' obviously means 'not very common'. Hence, a few people are an expected exception.

Actually I remembered it from a few months back. I just google searched to find it again. Still doesn't really matter if you count those "few" as an exception. If every single protoss put in the time and effort to master their 4gate as much as those "few" do you think only a few of them would make it into masters??

EDIT: 4gate is just generally very strong. And most players don't actually train to defend against a strong standard 4gate. Hence why zergs in particular still have some problems with the 4gate.

EDIT: I guess an analogy of a 4gate is a boxer who trains to only throw one punch the entire boxing match. He trains exclusively to rush the opponent at the start and have the most chance of landing that one blow. He trains himself to make that one blow so devestating he will win with it. This kind of boxer will obviously never be the best but he can rise up pretty far.

I find this analogy pretty good because even in PvZ when i 4-gate and mess it up. I feel i'm losing but i just continue on because it's not over yet. Then i suddenly get this small chance where he messes up his micro or lets me snipe an overlord or two. Then BAM zerg dies and starts typing stuff like "I HATE PROTOSS", "F***ING IMBA", "YOU NOOB", etc. The normal ZvP hate. 4-gate is betting on a sort of "one punch KO" and it's surprising how often it works.

[Wankey]

When are they address the fact that mutas are now pretty much worthless against anyone, I used to use mutas in zvz but now even in zvz I just get infestors which are far more cost effective and with a few good fungals literally obliterates any good muta army.

It's so easy to counter mutas now, get a few turrets / cannons and mineral harass at specific times are over. IMO, mutas have no role in the game unless you have the surprise which, when it costs 100 seconds to build a 200/200 building, I don't think the surprise is there anymore.

[JackhammerIV]

When are they address the fact that mutas are now pretty much worthless against anyone, I used to use mutas in zvz but now even in zvz I just get infestors which are far more cost effective and with a few good fungals literally obliterates any good muta army.

Can still use ling/bling/muta in ZvT. Seems to be falling out of fashion though. Can get them in ZvP to sort of delay the deathball from moving out or forcing protoss to forego deathball.

And mutas aren't meant to be cost-efficient. They're a pure harass mobile unit used to force turtling. But definitely not that good in ZvZ.

[TheRabidDeer]

I dont get it, there is finally an incredibly good anti-4gate strategy out for PvP and NOW blizzard decides, "hey, lets change 4 warpgate"? Even worse, they claim it is for the sake of PvP...

EDIT: Man, changing the research time of warpgate will effectively destroy most of my FE builds, since I rely on that warpgate being done at that time to hold off pushes, from many different races.

[JackhammerIV]

I dont get it, there is finally an incredibly good anti-4gate strategy out for PvP and NOW blizzard decides, "hey, lets change 4 warpgate"? Even worse, they claim it is for the sake of PvP...

EDIT: Man, changing the research time of warpgate will effectively destroy most of my FE builds, since I rely on that warpgate being done at that time to hold off pushes, from many different races.

Exactly my point rabid. Everyone on TL is focused on 2gate proxy cheese. They don't realise like 3gate expo vs zerg: the timing of warping in 3 sentries after planting expo when you just have 1 zeal and 2 sentries (how will this change??). And etc etc. We protosses are used to a sudden influx of units at around 6 mins to help defend or put on pressure. Now we have to readjust to make it a gradual build up of units that might result in fewer units than through the current warpgate research time.

[Todie]

When are they address the fact that mutas are now pretty much worthless against anyone, I used to use mutas in zvz but now even in zvz I just get infestors which are far more cost effective and with a few good fungals literally obliterates any good muta army.

It's so easy to counter mutas now, get a few turrets / cannons and mineral harass at specific times are over. IMO, mutas have no role in the game unless you have the surprise which, when it costs 100 seconds to build a 200/200 building, I don't think the surprise is there anymore.

mutas are fine. its all about momentum.. they arnt so cost effective in a stand-up fight when there are many units on the ground allowed to take shots at them in peace, but you can work around that; brute-force static defenses with muta numbers and upgrades. cut off reinforcements. force and constrict enemy movement by flying the mutas around, while threatening a flank with ground units.

optimal mutalisk play is volatile and demanding. it can feel risky...

But even if micro and mulitasking lacks to do all this well enough, you can always restict muta use to a reactive tool; use roach/infestor or baneling, and manage to kill a big thor and/or marine force - and/or force lots of tank/marauder/banshee - insantly switch into mass +2 mutas with teh gas of 3base and land some big agression during the windo where he's low on AA.

.. as for ZvZ, Mutas are stronger since last patch, because for such fragile flying fast light units, immobilization-duration of fungal was always much more of a threat than fungal DPS.



... to elaborate on the pending change to the gateway situation: the change implied will above all nerf the tactical flexibility of P opening strategies that rely on 3+ gateways into expand or pressure, i must say i welcome this, even as i try to be impartial.

... i dont think it will significantly swing the momentum against the P's in PvZ for example though, because the reduced build-times for the early gateway units should pose enough of a threat to force some defensive play. at least in closer positions.

[Genopath]

Moved to strategy forum.

I personally don't like this balance change too much. While it has a minor effect on the rest of the matchups, the DT rush will suffer the most from this change and it will have DT's warping from 6:30 to 6:30+wg research increase.

On the good side P early game has received a slight buff. This might prove interesting to see in team games. Protoss outside proxy and cannon rush, was the weakest race in 2v2s because of the big timing opportunity for a team to pick on one player while the WG research was on the way.