Cost effective ZvT: Roach, Infestor, Muta

[Todie]

Quite a while ago, i realized baneling-centric play was not for me in the ZvT matchup; its too delicate chancy and dependant on impeccable timing to work well for me.. especially as terrans learn, and as i improve as to get to face better terrans; against Terran opponents that do the most of Marine/Tank play, with supplemental turrets and Thors.

so i was doing what i could to make Infestors work, before i even knew the fungal buff was coming. i had mixed results then, but lately, its going well; the basic idea is to only get a few defensive banelings early if needed and go to infestors asap after lair, once 4-5 infestors with pathogen glands are out, im safe enough to secure a 3rd and saturate well while getting mutas etc...

what made me even more certain i was on to something good with this was hearing destiny describe this as his current ZvT approach (i recall him describing it to some student like roaches being good vs anything but infantry, witch is what the inferiors are for..)

leaning on Infestors, its actually possible to be cost effective, while i can also get creative and push myself to even better efficiency, combining standard mutalisk harass with infestor guerilla tactics.

Guerilla tactics is much more than sneaking some infestors in to IT-bomb mineral-lines; its spreading out burrowed infestors near a siege line and making the tanks kill each other, provoke the enemy to waste stims, scans and even to unsiege to avoid friendly fire... the more i play with this, the better i get at it; ill be able to better abuse the weak moments created by guerilla-infestors and the more effective the guerilla will be; maximizing its damage and minimizing infestor losses...

im even dreaming of combining this with some harassment drops; small numbers of roaches and even the odd infestor dropped in a main is great supplement to the mutalisk harass as they stand pretty well vs smaller numbers of marines.


... all in all, i sense this play-style deals very well with the marine/tank play that has become so common, at leas at my diamond level. As terrans branch out though, into builds that relly more on thors, marauders and /or air support, things become more complicated. (though, infestors are never bad, cept maybe vs lotsa' ghosts) ... getting infestors before mutas can be seen as giving the initiative away, and might open for the T to take a third for free, but im not seeing that as much of a problem yet, really, if im able to skip banelings entirely, the spire isnt really delayed that much by opening infestors.

here's a recent exemplifying replay that starts with a marine+scv allin in close-position LT

http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/14-0...-VS-Todie.html


... any comments on the general topic or specific replay are most welcome!

[JackhammerIV]

How about getting mutalisks out before the infestors. Just a small pack of them to harass terran and make him turtle up. Gives you time to get more bases and get those infestors. And terran might just overcompensate and make too many turrets.

Probably need to find a timing to get to hive tech with ultras and broodlords. And how would your upgrade planning work out?? I would imagine if your main aim is broodlords you'd get +2 ground missile and +2 ground armor then +1 air attack and +1 air armor or some other combination. Have you found like a perfect number of infestors?? Like for protoss the magic number of sentries is 8-9.

Maybe consider having 2-4 infestors as backup at a base in case the rest get killed or EMP'd. That way you'll still have infestors with full energy to do shit.

[Todie]

How about getting mutalisks out before the infestors. Just a small pack of them to harass terran and make him turtle up. Gives you time to get more bases and get those infestors. And terran might just overcompensate and make too many turrets.

Probably need to find a timing to get to hive tech with ultras and broodlords. And how would your upgrade planning work out?? I would imagine if your main aim is broodlords you'd get +2 ground missile and +2 ground armor then +1 air attack and +1 air armor or some other combination. Have you found like a perfect number of infestors?? Like for protoss the magic number of sentries is 8-9.

Maybe consider having 2-4 infestors as backup at a base in case the rest get killed or EMP'd. That way you'll still have infestors with full energy to do shit.

I guess the tech path upon getting lair is situational; Infestors first is the safer choice; something i go for if i feel disadvantaged or uncertain from events earlier and/or if its close spawn (meaning i ave less time to react to an aggressive move)

about upgrades, i used to be very aggressive about getting the roach upgrades, starting +1 armor even before lair, but as it stands, the infestors are an evermore efficient gas-sink than they used to; its the amount of infestor energy available and the use of it that determine how well the roaches do to much greater extent than their upgrades..

i guess the idea is, to get the magic number of 4-5 infestors, 5-6 mutas, roach speed and burrow out there asap as to give each part of the composition a reasonable amount of utility.

... atk and armor upps take a while though, so i often start at leas t one even before then, but im not sure that i should. anyway, when spire pops, i usually go for +2 attack asap. muta-armor is nice but they are so frickin far from cost effective in stand up fights vs marines anyway; its better to have them hit hard where they are always, and try to make sure they are never alone among many marines.


... as the game goes on, its easy to go overboard on the infestors; this adds some safety against straigtforward terran charges, but to invest the gas in upgrades, tech and above all - more mutas gives greater prospects of actively combating the Terran opponent.

... In theory, i would want to be steady on at least 12-15 mutas with +2 attack, start going on +2 +2 and (maybe) burrowed movment for roaches, have some 6-7 infestors out with NP upgraded, a good amount of roaches and get going on the gas of a 4:th base, at that point i'd go for drop, hive or both. investing in enough BL &/or ultra to make a difference is very costly though; in some situations i might consider going for the hive weapon & armor upps before doing anything wild

in reality, games rarely feel that well organized when lategame comes around.. but it seems clearer and clearer for longer and longer in the games.the typcal situation is a battle of attrition where we do everything to deny each otehrs 3rd and/or 4th bases...

[JackhammerIV]

Well i guess a cutesy thing if you're going infestors first is to hide it off to the side somewhere where terran can't see it if they scan your lair. Because i would think a terran scanning and seeing an infestation pit spawning after your lair is done would just realise "Oh no mutas coming" and just decide to rush straight for your base since you won't have energy yet. Then again that means the terran knows the time to scan to check things out. I would have to defer to a terran or zerg about this i guess. But that's sort of the feeling I get thinking about it.

[Todie]

Thank you for posing some critical questions here!

Well i guess a cutesy thing if you're going infestors first is to hide it off to the side somewhere where terran can't see it if they scan your lair. Because i would think a terran scanning and seeing an infestation pit spawning after your lair is done would just realise "Oh no mutas coming" and just decide to rush straight for your base since you won't have energy yet.[...]

The thing is, infestors is actually safer; infestation pit takes 50 seconds to morph and the pathegen glands take 80. its not hard to line up infestor production so that the first ones pop the second the upgrade finishes.

Counting from when lair finishes, this is 3 seconds FASTER than mutas can be out, what with spires 100 second build-time and mutas 33s ...

I normally dont like leaning on numbers to make such arguments; most important ere is how those 3-4 early infestors with 75 energy compare in defensive utility to the amount of mutas i could have out by then, and i deem they do well. the dangerous thing is if the terran has established a forward position with tanks already seiged.. but even if tanks are too many and in too god positions to be taken head on, infestors still deny marines from poking in and wreaking havoc.

... Typically, mutas are no better if the terran is already in that good offensive position; they're only better if they can beat the marines and any fortifications head on; i deem such terran strategies rare and risky; to go that heavy on tanks.

if it happens to me, hopefully ill be able to scout and adapt by getting the mutas first. its a bit tricky sicne its not enough to scout the production; factories can mean an combination of Thors and tanks....


... mutas are good at KEEPING the enemy from making a big move on me, but if they already have; if they're already close, infestors give a better bang for the buck, defensively.

[JackhammerIV]

Oooo some nice timing then. I would guess you'd make those infestors so that pathogen glands finish like a few secs before the infestors pop. Or just make some and have them accumulate energy. Some nice timing there. Well as a protoss i can't really think of anything else. I don't really know the timings in TvZ.

I guess as long as you can fit in those infestors but still put pressure on terran so that they don't feel free to just do what they want it should be fine. You just play things out I guess against a lot of terrans.