The Civil War: A Conspiracy of Amnesia

[Roland]

I really don't think the historical context matters as much as the social, regardless of the actual reasons for the Civil War, the Confederate flag is the symbol of slavery in my mind, and I believe in the minds of most people. Southern pride is fine, it just happens to share a symbol with one of America's worst social institutions.

[TheEconomist]

Weakness offends me. I call for all sensitive posters to be banned!

(Get the connection?)

[Dean63]

I thought it was common knowledge the civil war was inherently about finances, just as the revolutionary war was inherently about finances. Now of course they had other reasons, but for the most part it's all been about money. I think the case of the North considering slaves as their 'property' is very much mistaken, but the South resisting to give up their economic capital (slaves) and hence ability to harvest resources was pretty well known. Shame that they lost their resources and the reconstruction era took so long because of the "shadow civil war" but, you know, I am glad it all happened.

As to the flags, Tychus' post makes a lot of sense. Pretty good insight there.

I live in Florida, in particular the high-tech corridor, and rarely see a confederate flag. But when I have seen it and asked people what it means to them, it's about pride in not just country but region (south) as well. I'm sure some use it negatively, but that is a rare psychotic occasion.

I have no problem in it. It's a moot subject. What really should be assessed are economic and fiscal factors. That is the real drudge of anyone's life.

And as for Lupino's comment on "the South being backwards to the rest of the country" that is a poor notion. We have jobs ranging from R&D, IT, to Corporate HQ, mom-and-pop, and services/goods congruent to the North, West, and mid-West of the country. Perhaps you should visit the south and see for your self..?

[Roland]

I thought it was common knowledge the civil war was inherently about finances, just as the revolutionary war was inherently about finances. Now of course they had other reasons, but for the most part it's all been about money. I think the case of the North considering slaves as their 'property' is very much mistaken, but the South resisting to give up their economic capital (slaves) and hence ability to harvest resources was pretty well known. Shame that they lost their resources and the reconstruction era took so long because of the "shadow civil war" but, you know, I am glad it all happened.

As to the flags, Tychus' post makes a lot of sense. Pretty good insight there.

I live in Florida, in particular the high-tech corridor, and rarely see a confederate flag. But when I have seen it and asked people what it means to them, it's about pride in not just country but region (south) as well. I'm sure some use it negatively, but that is a rare psychotic occasion.

I don't think people who fly the Confederate flag are racist, at all, nor do I think the Civil War was primarily about slavery. That doesn't really matter today though, what matters is what people think when they see the Confederate flag. I think America at large views it as a racist emblem, and therefore they are offended by it. One more time for clarity, I am not offended by it, but I think it is an offensive symbol. Seeing a swastika doesn't bother me, it may offend Jews though, so I would be bothered if I saw someone proudly displaying a swastika as a part of their Pre-WW2 German heritage.

@Tychus, if you want to hang a Confederate flag in your room, that's your business, if your black friends are fine with it, good for them, if you fly it on your porch in a largely black neighborhood, that's offensive, maybe not to me, but it's still offensive.

[TheEconomist]

I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that EVERY Southerner looked and behaved like this:





@Roland: If someone is so easily offended by something so trivial or gets upset without considering actual intent then they need to be offended. They're emotional children and they need toughening up.

Even if they do mean it as pro-nazism or pro-slavery, that's their right. You have no right to silence or censor their beliefs. Otherwise, we might as well censor yours because its just as stupid. If we're to begin banning things simply because its offensive think of where it would stop. It would not be pleasant. Look at China. They're desperate for freedom. Why not simply, you know, let their problems be their problems. Your weakness offends me but I'm not trying to silence you. Yet, you can't do the same. Sad.


-- I swear, you and Lupino have THE MOST ironic signatures ever. You quote a Bob Dylan (=Rob Zimmerman) lyric and, given the content of most of his songs, you suggest censorship. Wow.That's like having a Bob Marley avatar and demanding to illegalize marijuana in Jamaica or having a Beatles signature and going on about how violent protest is the best path.

[Roland]

@Roland: Man up. You're acting pathetic. If someone is so easily offended by something so trivial or gets upset without considering actual intent then they need to be offended. They're emotional children and they need toughening up.

We have a philosophical difference on. I think it's every individual's responsibility to regulate themselves in regards to others, you think it's every individual's responsibility to regulate their reaction to others. The funny thing is I would even tend to agree with you, but I don't trust other people to regulate their reaction's appropriately, so I try to regulate my actions accordingly.

I don't know what the southerner picture was about though, for the record my family comes from Mississippi, I live in the south, my great-great-grandfather served in the Civil War, and my Dad was invited to the Sons of the Confederacy. I am fairly well aware of this issue, I just disagree with you.

And for the record, you've been flaming and flamebaiting me this whole thread, and I haven't reacted yet, I don't really know what you're trying to accomplish by calling me sad and pathetic now. Also, you're right, the Confederate flag shouldn't be banned, I just took the comparison to the Swastika too far when I said that, my bad.

[TheEconomist]

Careful Roland, you might offend me. I could even cry. Cater your actions more to my sensitivities please.

I don't really know what you're trying to accomplish by calling me pathetic now.

Should be obvious. I wanted to let you know I think your sensitivity and desire for censorship is pathetic.

...

Ouch! All that typing has bruised my fingers. I'm going to the hospital before I bleed out. I might not respond to your next post. I hope its not too harsh, I don't need to take a trip to the Psych Ward while I'm there.

Seriously though, my comments aren't to offend. They're to show you you shouldn't worry so much about other people's feelings. If they're offended by something, let them be offended. It'll force them to sort through their problems instead of sweeping it away.

[Roland]

you shouldn't worry so much about other people's feelings.

If you stop carrying how people feel, you stop carrying why they feel that way, and you lose all intellectual and ethical perspective. I don't think that's you for the record, or you'd be completely apathetic, but it's why I make a point to let myself be sensitive.

[TheEconomist]

*sigh*

. . .

Of course, you would take my statements as "stop caring how people feel".

If people never read, why do I bother?

Besides, what you're doing isn't trying not to "lose intellectual and ethical perspective". What you're doing is trying to silence people because it might offend someone. You're valuing the (ridiculous) opinion of a minority at the expense of the majority because you assume these people lack the ability to handle these things. I say they can, but, if they can't, they have issues that need to be dealt with. If being called fat upsets me, maybe I need to look in the mirror and see why. If the sight of the Confederate flag offends someone, they need to deal with these issues on their own. Banning things like (rarely) represent these things isn't helping them, it's enabling them to sweep it under the rug which is akin to handling a clinically depressed person a bottle of alcohol.

What actually irks me about your stance though is that you can't see or don't care about the larger effects of your suggestion.

[Roland]

*sigh*

. . .

Of course, you would take my statements as "stop caring how people feel".

If people never read, why do I bother?

Besides, what you're doing isn't trying not to "lose intellectual and ethical perspective". What you're doing is trying to silence people because it might offend someone. You're valuing the (ridiculous) opinion of a minority at the expense of the majority because you assume these people lack the ability to handle these things. I say they can, but, if they can't, they have issues that need to be dealt with. If being called fat upsets me, maybe I need to look in the mirror and see why. If the sight of the Confederate flag offends someone, they need to deal with these issues on their own. Banning things like (rarely) represent these things isn't helping them, it's enabling them to sweep it under the rug which is akin to handling a clinically depressed person a bottle of alcohol.

What actually irks me about your stance though is that you can't see or don't care about the larger effects of your suggestion.

I recanted my ban suggestion, few posts up. It was an edit in response to one of your edits, which explains why you missed it. Also, I don't think wither of us have the statistics to back up whether it's a majority or a minority who would be offended by a Confederate flag. Also, regardless of what you meant in the post I quoted, you've consistently called be oversensitive, which makes my reply relevant. I don't really care what you think because my rampant narcissism prohibits any significant reaction to the opinions of lesser mortals, though*.

*Not intended to be a factual statement