"There is no place for Lurker" WTF is mothership then?

[TheEconomist]

God, I love SCL OT

Someone else really should make a good post so I can rep it and get back to reppin' Gradius.

[SinsWage]

I'm just a man who has hated that idiots turn opinions into facts on the internet since Al Gore invented it. If that makes me a catch then who am I to stop destiny? Commence with the ceremony.

[Todie]

God, I love SCL OT

Someone else really should make a good post so I can rep it and get back to reppin' Gradius.

alas, the rep-system in place is clearly not optimized to deal with the significant disparity between our high standards of rep-deserval on the one hand and the scarcity of high quality posts on the other... (or even quality low enough to warrant neg-rep)

(no sarcasm intended)

as for the wedding, you have my blessing. but dont expect any fancy gift... you'll have to settle for me bringing the cheese:

Hidden Content:

lastly, this actually isnt SCL OT, so i guess we all deserve neg reps for this massive derail.

[TheEconomist]

I love cheese. As long as its sticky.

(And, I didn't mean the subforum so this is OT in the forum of SCLegacy; not SC Legacy's off-topic subforum.)

[flak4321]

Back on topic, the MS is a unit that doesn't cause much trouble for what it is. It doesn't affect most matchups because simply you require a lot of time and money to get. It simply adds more unit value to the game while changing little. Just think what would happen if they decided to add the Wraith to the game. Not much really since most of its roles are covered by either the Banshee or the Viking but there will still be some instances where it could be useful. However if you add back the Lurker, Zerg will get a really game changer since its a combination of a Dark Templar and Siege Tank which I'm pretty sure could have awesome uses.

I have to disagree on 2 points. First, Mass voids w/ an MS is just terrible to behold when you are on the receiving end and have harassed 2-3 expos consistently and scouted voids early. I have found but 3 counters. As a Terran, mass Thors with enough scouting to have an upgrade advantage, or mass Vikes, again with the upgrade advantage, which especially applies given equal numbers. As a Zerg, mass corruptors. A detector is optional as a MS isn't that hard to kill.

My second point is I feel the presence of roaches overlaps and improves on any offensive use the lurker would have. I admit to the possibility that lurkers might do more damage in some circumstances, but my current Zerg strats don't feel Lurker amenable. I don't use banelings often, but they do eliminate terran infantry more effectively than Lurkers ever could.

And not just Baneling drops, but drops at all are underused, especially against Protoss that aren't mobile as Terran or Zerg(not counting Blink Stalkers). More and more Zergs like Sen and Moon are starting to abuse those Drops, and I think that sooner or later, it will become common strategy just like in SC BW.

I may have to try a baneling drop. I feel Toss is more mobile than they get credit for. Sure, average unit speed is the slowest overall (pre-upgrades at least) but proxy pylons are deadly when undetected. Also, I use warp prisms fairly often, or at least I did before the map pool changed. I still use them occassionally to warp-in dts. The speed upgrade helps a lot. I will admit that Toss seems slow when trying to expand, so opponents seem to have a greater harassment opportunity and likelihood to overwhelm.

Indeed, I am ordained in StarCraftism. I will bless you in the name of the Zerry, the Kerry, and the Holy Raynor.

May Christ Metzen look favorably upon this upcoming matrimony.

Great! All the happy couple needs now is a Baggins to bring forth the ring.

[Todie]

I have to disagree on 2 points. First, Mass voids w/ an MS is just terrible to behold when you are on the receiving end and have harassed 2-3 expos consistently and scouted voids early. I have found but 3 counters. As a Terran, mass Thors with enough scouting to have an upgrade advantage, or mass Vikes, again with the upgrade advantage, which especially applies given equal numbers.

dude, Voidrays shouldnt be a problem for terran, with or without mothership. if the opponent is actually investing heavily in churning out VR's and not colossi n'or HT's, youre in the green to basically mass marines for the win. if you want to tech to support your marines, "mass thors" is needlessly expensive and not even all that cost effective vs voidrays; vikings are vastly supperior, and though superior mobily AND range, you dont even need to reach any cirtical number of vikings for them to be useful; they can kite voidrays infinitely.

[mythology]

i said it once and i'll say it again. the lurker isn't coming back unless it does something new. and if it does something new it probably won't be called "the lurker" anymore. so if they added it from a expansion it would be considered a new unit instead of an old unit.

My second point is I feel the presence of roaches overlaps and improves on any offensive use the lurker would have

if you mean when you use the roach to burrow, move, unburrow, attack, and repeat in micro ability, then yes i agree. though i think that aspect of the roach still needs some work like an underground speed upgrade to be as fast as the infestor.

it is the lurker's attack that people really want, not the lurker itself. people think back to the broodwar days and forget the present. they remember how the lurkers attack owned everything that walked the ground. some will tell you different but zerg could do the old sstrooper UMS map of holding off nonstop waves of ground forces, like the terrans can, using solely lurkers.

they think of how the lurker would tear apart sc2's current bio ball tactics but what they forget is how sc2 changed the attack system. attack types are more varied than in sc1. this ruins the lurkers attack, making the lurker seem weaker. for example, in sc1 the lurker owned zealots and dragoons, in sc2 the changes would make it so it still owns zealots but because stalkers are armored and mechanical the lurker would be weak. the stalkers would own the lurker and this is not including the blink ability for further ownage. the lurker would not have an attack type that owned every unit type, that would be in-balanced.

the only thing the lurker has going for it is its ability to attack in narrow paths and step like ramp layouts in non open terrain. without hindering themselves in a crowded mass like every other ground zerg unit does, a map weakness the sc1 zerg do not have because the ranged swarm of hydralisk was usually the answer.

i still like my lurker idea in my previous post. it stayed with the lurkers role of heavy defender, something the zerg in sc2 do not have, a turtling unit in a race without turtling units. i think the baneling perfectly reflects the sc2 zerg in the saying "the best defense is a strong offense, but once they go boom your left defenseless."

[RamiZ]

I may have to try a baneling drop. I feel Toss is more mobile than they get credit for. Sure, average unit speed is the slowest overall (pre-upgrades at least) but proxy pylons are deadly when undetected. Also, I use warp prisms fairly often, or at least I did before the map pool changed. I still use them occassionally to warp-in dts. The speed upgrade helps a lot. I will admit that Toss seems slow when trying to expand, so opponents seem to have a greater harassment opportunity and likelihood to overwhelm.

Well, the Protoss army as a Whole isn't that mobile, but I would say that Stalkers are one of the most mobile units with blink.

Banelings drops on Toss are pretty good at our level, since not a lot of Toss players know to micro properly and to spread army. But on Korean level, I would say there will be more times that it won't work than vica versa.

dude, Voidrays shouldnt be a problem for terran, with or without mothership. if the opponent is actually investing heavily in churning out VR's and not colossi n'or HT's, youre in the green to basically mass marines for the win. if you want to tech to support your marines, "mass thors" is needlessly expensive and not even all that cost effective vs voidrays; vikings are vastly supperior, and though superior mobily AND range, you dont even need to reach any cirtical number of vikings for them to be useful; they can kite voidrays infinitely.

Yeah, because Voids will chase your Vikings? Hell no, they will destroy your base and everything in it before you are able to take few of them down, if you don't have enough Vikings as you say of course.

[Todie]

Yeah, because Voids will chase your Vikings? Hell no, they will destroy your base and everything in it before you are able to take few of them down, if you don't have enough Vikings as you say of course.

letting big bad things sneak up on you is never good, but even assuming inferrior numbers, vikings still give you principal mapcontrol against voidrays, much as phoenix give P's map-control against mutas; if caught midmap voids(or mutas) are forced to either escape with some loses or suicide into the enemy.

if actually caught more or less off guard with Voids smelting a terran base, Marines are the straightforward answer.

I would guess that a big reason such strategies can seem as problems not that easy to solve for lower level player, is that its probably more mechanically demanding to build the needed infrastructure, mass the marines and use them right, than it is to build some voids and attack your base.. But evne if its harder, it still surely worth the effort, knowing how well marines do vs Voidrays.

[Sheliek]

New conversion?
Link?

Indeed.