I'd Like Some Help Plz

[flak4321]

Hello all. I was wondering if I might get the opinion of some players and/or mappers who are above bronze or who might know mapmaking in the tournament style to critique a map I have recently declared finished in all save appearance.

Some notes before I attach the picture:

Map name: Patton Mesa
Size: Huge or 192x200, w/ playable set at 174x188
Geysers at the high yield/gold are also high yield
There are LOS blockers in the form of Grass, which are hard to see:
a)At the entry to the left and right high yield areas, on the side of the watchtowers away from the rocks there.
b) At the entry to each of the expos blocked by rock covered ramps either north or south of the mains, on the side of these ramps toward the center of the map
c) Surrounding the 4 watchtowers in the vertical N/S line in down the map center
d) near the northermost and southernmost watchtowers partially shrouding the entries into the natural expansions.

Please don't think the map is bland looking, it looks a lot better when played. Also, I'm stuck on the low graphics setting, so this may be a part of it.

My questions are:

1) Is this perhaps too large for standard tournament usage? note that I simply want my maps to be of a similar quality. I do not intend to host a tourney using my maps any time soon or at all.

2) As it has a multitude of cliff areas, some areas are prone to undetected air/reaper/colossi/doom drop play. Good or bad?

3) And how would I go about adding background graphics like on Metalopolous or the Space background on Scrap Station, for example?

Attachment 1795
Attachment 1796

[JackhammerIV]

Well from the looks of the image all the high yields are blocked by destructible rocks but the place to plant a nexus/CC/hatchery is not blocked. If so that gives a huge advantage to a terran. They can float over a CC there.

In close positions the natural is really close to the opponent. The natural is really really really far from the main. How long does it take to spread creep. How long does it take a queen to walk over to the natural with no creep.

The two golds on the side of the map in the centre. There's like 2 raised platform things near it. Can units be dropped there. Is a siege tank in range of the gold from there?? Is the ramp blockable by 1 forcefield?? Large ground distance to travel from base to base makes any form of harass really good.

Might be some difficulty for zerg to take their natural and a third. Harass styles would work out to be really good. Siege tanks could be really good as well. Really hard to tell without a better quality image or like in game screenshots of the whole map.

[flak4321]

Well from the looks of the image all the high yields are blocked by destructible rocks but the place to plant a nexus/CC/hatchery is not blocked. If so that gives a huge advantage to a terran. They can float over a CC there.

In close positions the natural is really close to the opponent. The natural is really really really far from the main. How long does it take to spread creep. How long does it take a queen to walk over to the natural with no creep.

The two golds on the side of the map in the centre. There's like 2 raised platform things near it. Can units be dropped there. Is a siege tank in range of the gold from there?? Is the ramp blockable by 1 forcefield?? Large ground distance to travel from base to base makes any form of harass really good.

Might be some difficulty for zerg to take their natural and a third. Harass styles would work out to be really good. Siege tanks could be really good as well. Really hard to tell without a better quality image or like in game screenshots of the whole map.

I will add rocks to the high yield areas to prevent CC moves.

I consider the naturals the expos to the east or west of the mains, and yes they take some travel to get there. Would be 1/3 less time to use the near N/S expos, so I am considering whether to switch which ramps are rock blocked coming out of the main. Thoughts there?

Mains are also a little large. Creep spread generally has taken to the 4th tumor to get creep into the natural. Takes the same the the other near expo. Zerg do have some issue expanding. takes a probe/drone/scv a six count to get there.

Ramps are the average size found on most blizz maps and can be reasonably blocked with 1 forcefield. You may need 2 at times, as one only blocks 2/3 of the ramp. No one has tried FFs on the map yet for me to know for sure. A better description would be the upper end takes 4 suppys to block, maybe 5. I have to get back to you. Should I shrink them?

While you could tank drop on the ledge between the main and the natural, playtesting with friends reveals we keep too many units going back and forth to each near expo for those to be truly viable. The boomerang shaped high ground between the naturals is covered in trees and is inaccessible to any drop, reaper or colossi move. The high ground housing the high yield is not close enough for tanks to hit the low ground expos, but can hit units moving back and forth. The extra high ground triangles nearby are tree covered to deny drops, reapers or colossi access to those expos for harass.

How would I get an in-game screenshot of the whole map?

[flak4321]

Ramps have been shrunk to fit 1 Force Field. Rocks added to prevent CC fly overs to the golds. New images will have to wait until later tonight. Time to cook dinner.

[JackhammerIV]

Not screenshots of the whole map obviously.:P Just some general screenshots of the important parts. Like the kind they use to test positional imbalances. Gives like an idea how large it is. Like a sense of how many buildings could fit in etc. Even switching the places the rocks are at it's still tough to expand as zerg.

Zerg probably can't expo early safely with the large distances. Would be hard to keep the expo alive from early rushes. Moving the rocks over makes the expos closer to the opponent if the opponent is on the other half of the map across the golds.

The map would probably see a lot of air play. With the big distance between expos hard to play mech or colossi. Terran might favour bio, air and hellions on the map. Toss would favour phoenix and gateway play. Zerg going mutaling would be good but natural really hard to take. Probably have to always open speedling.

I just asked about the ramps forcefielding for fun.:P Unless the ground distance on close positions was like steppes then it might be a problem for toss with terran/zerg on close positions. Considering the size of the map it shouldn't really matter. I'm finding it really hard to gauge the distances between mains/naturals. Hard to develop a standard way to measure out distances though.:P (EDIT: Plus i suck at using the map scale like 192x200 to judge a map's size.:P Probably cos I don't make custom maps and don't know the size of current maps used on ladder/tournaments)

Say a terran or protoss wants to fast expo. How many buildings needed to block from like the bottom of the ramp to the CC/Nexus vs zerg?? The map is looking like a good map for terran/protoss versus zerg. But zerg can counter it with a fast lair and nydus considering the size of the main and how much empty space needs to be covered to block a nydus.

Somehow I'm thinking if you put a natural on the first high ground up from natural that is still one level below the main it'll feel like that 2v2 ladder map with the xel'nagas in the center and like a backdoor rock leading to a third. Can't remember the name of that map but that might make it better as zerg. It'd turn the map into something really macro oriented. Each race can basically take 3 bases really easily. (EDIT: The natural would be vulnerable to attacks from low ground though).

[flak4321]

I'm going to get some pics posted for you shortly (say a half hour at most). I'll give you before and after shots of the ramps and general pics of some other areas. I agree a natural should be closer than what I have here. I am going to try something for the naturals.

Some more playtesting data for you, if it helps. The playtesting so far has been mostly 1 or 2 vs. the same # of AI opponents set to hard, with 1 2v2 all human. The coms seem to favor air and hellions as Terran, gateway as Toss and roach/hydra as Zerg. I personally have been doing a number of drops due to the large map. Proxies work well also.

An alternate way to look at the size is by a ratio to a map you know. Remember Kulas Ravine? It is 140x136. This is 188x174, or approximately 1.32 times the size of Kulas, which was removed because it was deemed too large and had many exploitable ridges. I wanted a map both large and full of ridges, but hard to exploit all over. If you need another comparison, Shakuras Plateau is the same size as Kulas.

[JackhammerIV]

Ok thanks for the tip about map sizes. Then close positions are a bit far but not too far. As usual in those positions terran mech is really good.

The playtesting meets my expectations I guess. A lot of small harass attacks here and there. Makes it really good given what it is now. But if there's a natural on the middle cliff between the main and the current natural it pretty much changes the whole way the map is played. Easier for zerg to take a second and third. Then the natural could be exposed like on Tal'Darim Altar on GSL. Tanks sieged on the low ground may or may not be able to hit the natural.

Just an idea though.:P Oh and there are no positional imbalances right?? Like a siege tank can reach farther on one position but not on the others.

[flak4321]

I'm considering something that will make the natural closer and preserve the existing natural as a possible third while making a mild reduction to the cavernous starting positions, which are large enough to house 2 starting bases worth of buildings, say for example, you favor a 4 gate robo into a 12 gate 3 robo once you get up to a third base. I've actually had an 8 rax, 3 factory, 6 starport build w/ double armory and well spread suppys all fit in any of the starting bases.

As for positional imbalances, they are few. I used the grid to design everything. This map is perfectly symmetrical in terrain features, a key feature of my SC1 maps that I will continue in SC2, with few exceptions. The only such imbalances occur around the mineral patches and are very, very minor as they are the result of patch placement. Tanks attack from the same max cliff distance all the time, to use your example.

Oh yeah, and I didn't forget those additional pics you wanted. They are coming, but I want to get them with the natural fix in place that they may be judged given the improvement. Then again, it may not matter so much.

[JackhammerIV]

I can wait to see the in game screenshots. Taking your word for it those mains are huge.....well thankfully not many zergs nydus these days. That seems like a really good map to nydus constantly and stress out the opponent.:P

[flak4321]

Okay Jackhammer, it's picture time, part 1! You get, in order, a look at the new ramp size, the new natural exp, a creep test, and the first 2 of 4 pics of the line of sight blocker placement. Part 2 to follow immediately!

The creep test revealed that the natural can now be reached w/ 2 tumors instead of the previous 3 to 4.