PTR Patch 1.3.0

[TheEconomist]

OP has nothing to do with it. He didn't say, "It would be OP to be able to warp them in and there's no way we can balance that." He said, "There's no decision making in deciding whether or not to get Immortals against armored units if you can already get them without teching. That's not good gameplay."

Blizzard could easily nerf the Immortal to where it's balanceable in terms of being warped-in but, then, there's no decision to be made. You get Immortals if you see armored. Period.

Sorry, I'll be sure to turn my sufficient sentences in overly expanatory paragaphs for your tiny brain from now on.

[MulletBen]

Well, that whole argument is unnecessary.

Honestly, the only thing OP about warping-in anything is that you can get it out too quickly to counter. The only difference between warp-in and standard queuing is time; specifically, response time. What they are doing is making it so you can't auto-counter by warping in High Templar. Same concept, only it would make no sense for Immortals to come in on a cooldown before they could attack.

So, call it OP, opr call it bad gameplay; the issue is that it is hard, if not impossible, to make warping in Psi-storms or Immortals balanced. How much would either of those need to be nerfed to make them totally balanced? What drastic changes would need to be made to Immortals before they wouldn't be too powerful against a Zerg player who roach rushed? Similarly, in order to make MMM drops viable while storms are instant, how much damage would storm actually deal, and over what radius? The bad gameplay mechanics force the unit into a situation where it is poorly balanced.

For an example of this, look at the reaper. It's hard to make the reaper a unit that is usable late-game without it's early harassment potential becoming overpowered. Thus, it is relegated to a very small, almost meaningless role.

Sorry, Tychus, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with the squid, this time.

[TheEconomist]

You can warp-in a unit anywhere in pylon/prism power That's the cause for concern; not the reduced build time.

It's hard to make the reaper a unit that is usable late-game without it's early harassment potential becoming overpowered.

That's why the Blizzard developers get the big bucks Hard =\= Impossible. There is always a way. For example, an upgrade or some other mechanic not yet implemented. I'm glad you're not a developer. If scientists thought like you, there'd be no technology to game on.

There's not a side to take: I am quoting Dustin Browder. It's not debatible. My argument was that Immortals were put into Robotics Facilities because Immortals being Gateway units removed important decision making crucial to the game; not because of balance. Since I haven't seen anyone question the legitimacy of this quote because the quote being wrong is the only way there's an grounds for arguent. Therefore, there should be no debate.

But since there is: they had Immortals balanced to be warped-in for at least a year. I understand what you're saying. But, there's always a way and they had it. It could've been making the building to get Immortals higher tech, nerfing the damage, nerfing the HPs, removing the shield, I don't know what it was but obviously it worked for a long time. Just because you or I can't come up with a solution in a few minutes doesn't mean anything. Game design is much more complex.

I never mentioned psi-storms so I don't know why you brought that up. *ignored*

-- http://us.battle.net/en/forums/threa...p=1#post357439

Apparently part of the balancing was to make the cooldown longer after warping-in an Immortal.

.

[Jabber Wookie]

There's not a side to take: I am quoting Dustin Browder. It's not debatible. My argument was that Immortals were put into Robotics Facilities because Immortals being Gateway units removed important decision making crucial to the game; not because of balance. Since I haven't seen anyone question the legitimacy of this quote because the quote being wrong is the only way there's an grounds for arguent. Therefore, there should be no debate.

If I may provide another variation of this point, warp-in is irrelevant to the immortal move to the robo facility. Even if warp-in was never implemented into SC2, according to Dustin Browder's logic, they still would have moved it to the robo. The purpose being that he believed it would just be massed against armored units every time they appeared. Whether this involves warping in, or queuing up as many as you can with what would presumably be more warp gates than robo facilities.

As for all of the people making comparisons between infestors, ghosts, and templars.... may I point out something... You all continue to say well why are infestors able to immediately FG and ghosts can immediately EMP, etc... but they are not the same units. Major point in that regard, can two infestors or two ghosts morph into a strong attacking unit after they're out of energy! Didn't think so. This game is complex, not made to be broken down and analyzed as though each race is identical in some shape or form.

Also, if I may note in regard to Jackhammer's "professional" comments in concern to the change, both Tasteless and Artosis who are Protoss players believe the change is for the best. Both saying it was far too strong as is, and that some sort of nerf is necessary whether it be what Blizzard is doing in the test run or what they eventually do to adjust it.

[TheEconomist]

That's exactly what I meant I just used the term warp-in to replace Gateway because I didn't think my words through and everyone else was using that term.

[protoswarrior]

If I may provide another variation of this point, warp-in is irrelevant to the immortal move to the robo facility. Even if warp-in was never implemented into SC2, according to Dustin Browder's logic, they still would have moved it to the robo. The purpose being that he believed it would just be massed against armored units every time they appeared. Whether this involves warping in, or queuing up as many as you can with what would presumably be more warp gates than robo facilities.

As for all of the people making comparisons between infestors, ghosts, and templars.... may I point out something... You all continue to say well why are infestors able to immediately FG and ghosts can immediately EMP, etc... but they are not the same units. Major point in that regard, can two infestors or two ghosts morph into a strong attacking unit after they're out of energy! Didn't think so. This game is complex, not made to be broken down and analyzed as though each race is identical in some shape or form.

Also, if I may note in regard to Jackhammer's "professional" comments in concern to the change, both Tasteless and Artosis who are Protoss players believe the change is for the best. Both saying it was far too strong as is, and that some sort of nerf is necessary whether it be what Blizzard is doing in the test run or what they eventually do to adjust it.

I don't agree with Tasteless' or Artosis' opinion because they tend to be around people who do not challenge their thinking, with them being English speaking and all, and not Korean speaking. I have heard Koreans from Team StarTale comment on the removal briefly, and they do say the KA is too strong as is, but removing the upgrade is totally stupid.


Anyways, that wasn't my main issue though...

I have a few points to present for the case of getting the KA.

KA is essential as it presents an alternative to the DPS of the Colossus without its inherent weakeness - its mobility.

What I mean is that, for every Protoss that goes Colossus, Terran just does mass infantry drops and cripples Protoss in midgame, because when Protoss is pushing with his Colossi/Stalker/Sentry/Zealot ball, he cannot separate the gate core from the robo units. The reason is that all gate units are weak by nature. The Protoss is screwed because of that.

Another inherent weakness of the Colossus, but is of less of an issue with the substitute since there is an inherent weakness to HT as well, is the presence of direct counters. Vikings for Colossi; Ghosts for HT.

So, in the above respects, HT have an advantage for teching to over Robo. The strength of KA is the instant storm upon warp-in.

This gets hairy for Terran when we approach lategame or are in lategame - instant storm reinforcement can turn the tide of battles significantly in favor of Protoss. However, here is the catch:


Terrans can whine all they want about that power from Protoss, but it is their own fault to stick to pure bio core army for lategame tech. The reason why Stim and Concussive shells seem OP in early game is because they are upgrades that make bio Tier 3 units instantly. But, there is a fundamental flaw in that thinking - infantry are still tier 1 barracks units!

As such, it makes SENSE that HT that are tier 3 and are extremely expensive SHOULD punish a Terran who sticks to tier 1 - 1.5. But, Terrans just whine saying infantry is too good (in their perception). I hate it when they do that: there is something called a Factory in their damn tech tree, they can transition into a mix of bio and mech whose DPS output is much larger than pure infantry.

Thor/Tank/Marine with turrets can wreck ANY Protoss with HT-centric forces, and even Colossi heavy ones. The key is to have positional advantage with siege tanks and the 250mm strike cannons researched for countering Immortals.

Storm doesn't do shit to Tanks or Thors... Even instant storms. Therefore, I believe the inclusion of KA to be justified. However, since the masses are biased to think that bio is the only option for Terran, I think that the solution from inControl to add a cooldown of 10-12 seconds to spells upon warp-in is a fabulous idea.

Keep the KA, let it cost the same and take the same amount of time to research, but add an inherent cooldown to every HT warped in, just like Corruptors have on their corruption spell.

This would make the lategame balanced for Terran and Protoss, and would keep the viability of the Templar Tech tree as an alternative to Robotics. The other thing it does is it allows Protoss to warp in a HT in advance when spotting a drop of 2 medivacs from strategically placed observers and only having to wait 10 seconds or so which cuts it close to have a storm as the drop arrives, or makes it so the Templar is seconds away from instant storm, which gives Terran a very risky but small window of opportunity.

It creates a micro-tension between the Terran and Protoss, and that would increase the appeal for the PvT gameplay.

So, basically, adding a 10second cooldown upon warpin while still keeping the KA as is would totally "fix" lategame PvT and still be helpful to defend drops.

The reason why Protoss need AoE DPS from casters or power units is because Stim and Concussive shells coupled with medivac healing make ANY drop impossible to stop with pure cybercore units, especially 2-3 dropships. Hence KA has to stay.


As a side note to show how KA is not OP in the current patch, I suggest everyone watch Sang Ho (TSL_Killer) vs Slayers_MMA in today's GSL code A games. One of the most epic PvTs you will ever see. And MMA goes mass marauder+a few marines and medivacs + mass vikings to fight Sang Ho's army of Colossi Stalker Sentry that he later converted into Immortal/HT/Zeal/Stalker and then mixed Colossi afterwards when ghosts started appearing. Sang Ho outplayed MMA, not because of his storms, but because he was the better player at multi-tasking. KA had little to no bearing on the end result. This was the Xel'Naga Caverns game.


PS:

One thing to remember that I forgot to mention/elaborate on:

HT are tier 3 and cost >>> ghosts and infestors which are tier 2, Marines are tier 1, Marauders are tier 1.5.

Usually tier 3 > tier 1/1.5 right? So, Terrans really need to learn mech style better....

The cost to get 1 HT with instant storm involves 2 tech buildings, 2 researches and the cost of 1 HT (which is not cheap at 50/150 per Templar).

• Final time taken: 320 seconds (includes KA and psi storm) + 5 seconds to warp in HT = 325 seconds
  
• With CB: approx 213 seconds (still a full 53 seconds longer than Ghost tech) + 5 seconds for warp in = 218 seconds
  

Ghosts take 1 tech building and 1 research (EMP is free).

• Final time taken: 160 seconds (includes time to make 1 ghost + moebius reactor)

[RamiZ]

@ Protosswarrior

If you really compare Psi Storms to the EMP, why don't you bring all of the facts you can get between them?

• Ghosts aren't even close to being useful as HTs.
• EMP is damaging shield for 100, and is draining all of the energy, while storm do 80 damage. By saying that, EMP when casted on one group of units, has no effects if it is casted again on the same group, since a lot of the Protoss units got no more than 100 shield.
• EMP has no effects vs. Zerg units without energy, while Storm does.
• Ghosts aren't massable units, while all of the Protoss players make a lot of HTs, and keep constantly warping them in, which means when you spread Protoss units, you can minimize the damage of the EMP, while you will do the same with the Storm, there will always be good amount of HTs, or new warped-in HTs, and you will always have good amount of Storms to Storm those units again.
• After using all of the energy, Ghosts aren't that strong, while HTs can be merged into Archons that are pretty powerful units.
• And after all HTs have feedback, that can snipe Ghosts before Ghosts can do anything, or Medivacs, or whatever unit Terran has with energy.
• Ghosts can launch Nuclear Missiles, that are powerful, but really hard to execute. Especially if you want to hit the army.

You can't kill units with just EMP and Ghosts, but you certainly can with just High Templars...
Now, you can analyze which one is stronger, including your facts about time and cost you need.

Also, the statement that Storms doesn't work vs. Siege Tanks if pretty false since it takes half of their HP, and unlike Marauders, Tanks can't be healed with Medivacs, and will die from the second Storm, but it is true that if you position Tanks good, Storms will have little to no effect.

And about the games, you can also watch oGsMC vs. ZeNEXByun and see how effective Storm can really be.

[DemolitionSquid]

@ Protosswarrior

If you really compare Psi Storms to the EMP, why don't you bring all of the facts you can get between them?

• Ghosts aren't even close to being useful as HTs.
• EMP is damaging shield for 100, and is draining all of the energy, while storm do 80 damage. By saying that, EMP when casted on one group of units, has no effects if it is casted again on the same group, since a lot of the Protoss units got no more than 100 shield.
• EMP has no effects vs. Zerg units without energy, while Storm does.
• Ghosts aren't massable units, while all of the Protoss players make a lot of HTs, and keep constantly warping them in, which means when you spread Protoss units, you can minimize the damage of the EMP, while you will do the same with the Storm, there will always be good amount of HTs, or new warped-in HTs, and you will always have good amount of Storms to Storm those units again.
• After using all of the energy, Ghosts aren't that strong, while HTs can be merged into Archons that are pretty powerful units.
• And after all HTs have feedback, that can snipe Ghosts before Ghosts can do anything, or Medivacs, or whatever unit Terran has with energy.

You can't kill units with just EMP and Ghosts, but you certainly can with just High Templars...
Now, you can analyze which one is stronger, including your facts about time and cost you need.

Did the Ghost suddenly lose access to its basic attack, Snipe, and Cloaking while I wasn't looking? I play Protoss and hate Terran, but even I can admit Ghosts are probably the superior all around unit. Your entire argument is situational based on player skill, who can Feedback/Storm/Snipe/EMP first.

[RamiZ]

Did the Ghost suddenly lose access to its basic attack, Snipe, and Cloaking while I wasn't looking? I play Protoss and hate Terran, but even I can admit Ghosts are probably the superior all around unit. Your entire argument is situational based on player skill, who can Feedback/Storm/Snipe/EMP first.

They didn't lose all of that, but those things aren't that good at all, not close to what HT can do. Cloak isn't that good, especially when you have Observers and Overseers with your main army.

Yes, Ghosts are "superior" all-around unit, that is why we are seeing them in all those matches right? Oh wait, there aren't any matches with Ghosts outside of TvP, where HTs are pretty common in PvZ and PvT... And because you are Protoss, you shouldn't say "even I can admit" because it is logical that you will cry about Terrans and Ghosts.

And my argument is based on professional level, I've never said who should do what first. There is range for abilities, and HT will Feedback Ghosts before they are in range for EMP(if they cast it at the same time) and I even think that it has the same range as Snipe, but don't quote me on that.
Problem is, even if you EMP his whole army, together with HTs, he will warp-in another row of them, and will Storm your whole army anyway.

I even said that HT nerf is a bit too much, I think they need something in return, but don't act like it isn't better than any other +25 energy upgrade just because of the fact that HTs can be warped.

[DemolitionSquid]

They didn't lose all of that, but those things aren't that good at all, not close to what HT can do. Cloak isn't that good, especially when you have Observers and Overseers with your main army.

Yes, Ghosts are "superior" all-around unit, that is why we are seeing them in all those matches right? Oh wait, there aren't any matches with Ghosts outside of TvP, where HTs are pretty common in PvZ and PvT... And because you are Protoss, you shouldn't say "even I can admit" because it is logical that you will cry about Terrans and Ghosts.

And my argument is based on professional level, I've never said who should do what first. There is range for abilities, and HT will Feedback Ghosts before they are in range for EMP(if they cast it at the same time) and I even think that it has the same range as Snipe, but don't quote me on that.
Problem is, even if you EMP his whole army, together with HTs, he will warp-in another row of them, and will Storm your whole army anyway.

I even said that HT nerf is a bit too much, I think they need something in return, but don't act like it isn't better than any other +25 energy upgrade just because of the fact that HTs can be warped.

Everything you're saying is based on what is happening NOW in the pro metagame. Need I remind thee of the Vulture, the once worthless unit that became a staple of good Terran play years later? Just because no one is using Ghosts outside TvP now doesn't mean they won't explode in use later. I think TLO has more than shown us the use of Ghosts and Nuking in TvT, and the use of Cloaking and Snipe in PvZ.

I'm not saying the HT didn't need a nerf. I'm saying you're being unreasonably biased about the matchup. Ghosts are very good units and EMP is not to be underestimated.