PTR Patch 1.3.0

[JackhammerIV]

@Ramiz
Well a feedback isn't guaranteed to kill anything unless it has energy in excess of its HP. Ghosts can have uses in TvZ to snipe considering all zerg units are biological. But in TvP it's almost essential for terrans to get considering it does AOE attack on all protoss units. HT are only common in PvZ if the opponent goes for lings/hydras/mutas in large numbers. Roaches like marauders just giggle and run through the whole storm.

EMP damage instant: Another point you missed out is EMP shield damage is instant. Storm damage is over time. At the lowest point EMP removes 40 shields off sentries. But then sentries without energy aren't as useful anymore. So the EMP energy removal on sentries hits harder than the shield damage it does. Zealot has 50 shields. Stalker has 80 shields.

The damage: Ok so psi storm does 10 damage every half second. To do 40 damage a unit needs to be inside psi storm for 2 seconds. To do 50 damage unit sits inside the storm for 2.5 seconds. To do 80 damage a unit has to sit in the storm for the full duration of 4 seconds.

A marine with no combat shield does one stim and thus has 35 hp. It needs to sit in the storm for 2 seconds to die. A marauder needs at the very least 2 psi storms to kill it (at the very fastest) in 6.5 seconds (due to non stacking of psi storms). A marine/marauder stimming can move 3.375 in 1 second. So it can cover the whole diameter of a storm in 1 second with stim. At the quickest and worst case of marine has to run through the entire storm to escape (i.e. run diameter of 3) I guess a marine can only escape a storm in 2 seconds. See storm, stim, run back. With combat shield a marine stimming out of the whole storm should expect to end up with 5hp then.

Say the terran has slow reaction speed so it takes 3 seconds. So that's 60 damage. EMP can only match that by hitting stalkers. Here's the thing though. EMP has a larger overall area by 77.78% [(2/1.5)(squared) -1].

Dealing with EMP/storm: How does a protoss deal with EMPs. Zealots in front, stalkers then sentries in the back. Spread in an arc. If ghosts are out then most toss would do this whenever they have some time to rearrange the army.

What should terrans do if HTs are out. Marauders in front. Marines behind them. Spread out in an arc. Exactly like dealing with banelings. But instead with stim and MMM there is a tendency for the units to clump up together and marines and marauders are mixed around in the clump.

The more marines in a bioball the better colossus and HT get. Terrans might want to consider more marauders and fewer marines. And is not going bio vs protoss that weak?? If terran is going mech HTs aren't as useful. Just before the PTR was announced it was like "Toss HT is so damn strong. Lemme try mech in late game." Now it's "No amulet....YES!!!! It's safer to go bio all game long."

Brief range, radius, cost, time comparison: In terms of cost and time terran can get ghost with EMP 2.6 times cheaper on minerals, 4.33 times cheaper on gas and 2.17-2.67 times faster than HT warped in being able to storm. Exact cost and time are on page 10 of this thread.

EMP has a range of 10 and a radius of 2. Snipe has a range of 10. Psi storm has a range of 9 and a radius of 1.5. Feedback has a range of 9.

So EMP has more range, bigger radius, can be gotten sooner and costs less. Considering how MMM clumps storm would do more damage and warp in with amulet makes it very strong.

EDIT: Terran can transition into mech and more marauders and storm isn't as good anymore. All protoss units have shields so EMP can remain useful throughout the game. Up to everyone's opinion if they're on equal ground. I personally think due to that utility against basically all protoss builds EMP is better in the TvP matchup than storm is.

Archons? Archons take 12 seconds to morph and there is a tendency even in pro play for archons to be morphing near the front line. In a way it needs to anyways if the battle is in a choke. Archons can be strong but how many marauders with stim and concussive are needed to kill an archon?? Archons getting popular in PvZ now because of how much damage they do. But they're not as popular in PvT simply because of concussive shell. I don't see why Archons can't be massive being able to break forcefields and not being slowed by conc shell.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/EMP_Round
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psi_Storm
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Archon
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine

[Todie]

I feel like anyone even attempting to thorw nubemrs at this discussion is just contaminating it, becsaue tehre are always other angles to look at it from and numbers dont matter in any objective fundamental way

[JackhammerIV]

I feel like anyone even attempting to thorw nubemrs at this discussion is just contaminating it, becsaue tehre are always other angles to look at it from and numbers dont matter in any objective fundamental way

LOL. K k. In non-number form. Ghosts with EMP feels really dangerous against toss. Terrans just need to stop going bio vs storm. If terrans wanna go bio just go mass marauders with medivacs vs storm. Terrans don't seem to transition well in late game TvP.

And the common counterargument of "EMP is almost too strong against protoss" seems to be "Well EMP can't kill anything so it's fine. And zergs don't have shields." EMP isn't completely overpowered but it's still really strong in the early game TvP.

[RamiZ]

LOL. K k. In non-number form. Ghosts with EMP feels really dangerous against toss. Terrans just need to stop going bio vs storm. If terrans wanna go bio just go mass marauders with medivacs vs storm. Terrans don't seem to transition well in late game TvP.

And the common counterargument of "EMP is almost too strong against protoss" seems to be "Well EMP can't kill anything so it's fine. And zergs don't have shields." EMP isn't completely overpowered but it's still really strong in the early game TvP.

I've never said that EMP isn't strong, I just think that Storm is stronger. That was my whole point, that even with all those higher costs and longer time needed to get HTs, that Storm still wins, in my opinion.

Everything you're saying is based on what is happening NOW in the pro metagame. Need I remind thee of the Vulture, the once worthless unit that became a staple of good Terran play years later? Just because no one is using Ghosts outside TvP now doesn't mean they won't explode in use later. I think TLO has more than shown us the use of Ghosts and Nuking in TvT, and the use of Cloaking and Snipe in PvZ.

I'm not saying the HT didn't need a nerf. I'm saying you're being unreasonably biased about the matchup. Ghosts are very good units and EMP is not to be underestimated.

"The use of Cloaking and Snipe in PvZ" did you mean TvZ, or TvP?
It is not like that the Pros didn't try Ghosts in TvZ, but if scouted, strategy is extremely easy to counter, and it is not so cost-effective. And I agree, this still doesn't mean they won't be used later, but yes, if you wanted to point out that I'm talking about current strategies, I certainly am and I don't see problem with that.

About your second paragraph, I never disagreed with the statement that Ghosts are good units, I said they aren't good as you are making it out to be. And I'm an Zerg player, I try to look at the things pretty objectively, I am not perfect, I can make mistakes and I fail sometimes, but reading that for you Ghosts are better than HTs, I'm not sure that I am the one being biased.

[JackhammerIV]

@Ramiz
Uhhhh. I never mentioned EMP not being strong. Or you suggesting it's weak. I can't even find anything implying that in any of my posts. I've always had the opinion EMP is too strong given the cost and time needed for terran to get it. It works well against the whole protoss tech tree. Every single unit. Even colossus it still cuts off 100shield hp on a unit that relies on keeping back and staying alive long enough to kill tons of shit.

[RamiZ]

@Ramiz
Uhhhh. I never mentioned EMP not being strong. Or you suggesting it's weak. I can't even find anything implying that in any of my posts. I've always had the opinion EMP is too strong given the cost and time needed for terran to get it. It works well against the whole protoss tech tree. Every single unit. Even colossus it still cuts off 100shield hp on a unit that relies on keeping back and staying alive long enough to kill tons of shit.

Man you are confusing me... :x

I think you completely misunderstood me. I've compared EMP with Psi Storm, saying that Storm is stronger, when looking overall on it. Then, you said that EMP isn't overpowered and that is very strong. I came, agreeing with it, saying that "I've never said that EMP isn't strong", by this I meant, I just thought that Psi Storm is better. Then, you came and said "I never mentioned EMP not being strong. Or you suggesting it's weak."

Seriously, can't understand you... :/

[JackhammerIV]

@Ramiz
Well you said "I never said that EMP isn't strong..." as the first thing after the quote. But I never mentioned at all that you were wrong thinking EMP is weak etc. That phrase just somehow gave me the implication that you somehow thought that I was accusing you of thinking EMP is weak. Which I didn't.

The rest of it I get clearly. You think Storm>>EMP. Which is just your opinion. I still think EMP>>Storm.

[RamiZ]

You think Storm>>EMP. Which is just your opinion. I still think EMP>>Storm.

In TvP yes I agree, but you all forget the PvZ part, where EMP has little to no use, and where Storm wreck Havoc.
http://sc2casts.com/cast2644-Huk-vs-...ft-Game-Ladder
This is just example, showing how storms can turn the tide of the battle. I respect everybody's opinion, but prove me wrong on this one.

[JackhammerIV]

Well.....roaches. Roaches just giggle past storms. Going mutaling vs storms is obviously bad. Like really bad. Asking all your units to die bad. Similar for ling hydra. But going mutaling to keep toss in base, expo like crazy then get ultralisks with 2-2 or 3-3 does ok.

Roach/hydra with possibly corruptors (if toss goes colossus) is good in PvZ vs most builds. Roaches stay in front and take the storms. Hydras stay in the back and kill shit. Get burrow even and use some burrow micro to burrow low hp roaches in the storms. They survive a lot longer. Mix in a few infestors for fungal if the zerg wants. Roaches are basically the key unit in PvZ and they do reasonably well against storms. Of course against zealot, immortal, HT it becomes a bit harder. Infestor fungal can help with that.

Good storms can turn the tide of battle. Just like a good EMP or a good fungal. And I think zerg is similar to protoss in that they don't have that much trouble dealing with storms.

Late game PvZ feels a lot more fluid than PvT. Say toss opens colossi. Zerg goes roach/hydra/corruptors. Protoss tries to engage and the corruptors start to overwhelm colossi. Protoss transitions into HTs. Zerg sees no more colossi so gets broodlords. Protoss is surprised and moves back. Gets a lot more stalkers then goes in to clear out broodlords. Zerg goes more roaches and ultralisks to kill all the stalkers and they can shrug off storms. Protoss goes immortals and cuts back on HTs. A lot of unit changes to catch the opponent off guard. And it can go multiple directions from the one path i laid out.

Late game PvT. Terran makes MMM and vikings. No colossi...mmmkay no need vikings. Mix in a few ghosts here and there. ZOMG HTs out. Ok ghost snipe & emp vs feedback & storm battles. Whereas in the GSTL TvP of Mvp vs Squirtle....oh he's making HTs. Let's transition into tons of tanks. Oh tanks less HTs lemme make more immortals now. Oh immortals lemme put in some more marines and ghosts. Oh he's making a bit more bio lemme put in some more HTs. A lot more unit composition changes in that game than is the norm currently.

EMP obviously is focused on TvP. It's the AOE spell that's the quickest and cheapest to get. And in one matchup it can take off 1/3 to 1/2 the total hp (shield and health) off gateway units. And it does 100 shield damage to high shield units. Shields being extremely important to two units the immortal and archon. And it can reveal cloaked units. And it drains all energy if it hits. I can understand if "The zealot, stalker and sentry are so so so strong that if we can't EMP them our terran infantry just dies." As a Protoss sure doesn't feel that way.

[DemolitionSquid]

"The use of Cloaking and Snipe in PvZ" did you mean TvZ, or TvP?
It is not like that the Pros didn't try Ghosts in TvZ, but if scouted, strategy is extremely easy to counter, and it is not so cost-effective. And I agree, this still doesn't mean they won't be used later, but yes, if you wanted to point out that I'm talking about current strategies, I certainly am and I don't see problem with that.

About your second paragraph, I never disagreed with the statement that Ghosts are good units, I said they aren't good as you are making it out to be. And I'm an Zerg player, I try to look at the things pretty objectively, I am not perfect, I can make mistakes and I fail sometimes, but reading that for you Ghosts are better than HTs, I'm not sure that I am the one being biased.

TvZ, it was a typo.

Most strategies are easy to counter if scouted, that's the point of scouting. Not to forget Zerg have the easiest time countering a scouted strategy. They are the most reactive race because of how they create units. This is balanced by their need to balance drone and unit production. Have you ever, as a Zerg player, faced a good Ghost using Terran? Who instead of using a Thor rush or even Hellions, went Marine/Ghost? I play both Zerg and Protoss, and during Beta I faced a guy who did just that. Ghosts 2 shot Zerglings, and can Snipe Roaches into oblivion. Then, he cloaked, and Nuked me from every side. Send in an Overseer... Sniped. Send in a Spore crawler... yeah, they don't bury fast enough to spot a Nuking Ghost. Infestors? Holy shit, EMP has a use in PvZ. Can't FG a group of Marines when your Infestors are getting EMPed and Sniped.

Is Storm good? Hell yeah, it kicks ass, if you know how to use it and not miss. But shit, EMP and Snipe ruin Zerg. Queens, Infestors, Overseers. They get wrecked. HT's are powerful, but after this Amulet nerf, I wouldn't cry if Protoss got Ghosts to replace their anti-mass biological powers.