I just found out why the plot sucks!!!

[solidsamurai]

Omg you guys. It's because of the developmental social heirarchy.

Development team

Developers can range in size from small groups making casual games to housing hundreds of employees and producing several large titles. Companies divide their subtasks of game's development. Individual job titles may vary, however roles are the same within the industry. The development team consists of several members. Some members of the team may handle more than one role; similarly more than one task may be handled by the same member. Team size can vary from 20 to 100 or more members, depending on the game's scope. The most represented are artists, followed by programmers, then designers, and finally, audio specialists, with two to three producers in management. These positions are employed full-time. Other positions, such as testers, may be employed only part-time.

Designer

A game designer is a person who designs gameplay, conceiving and designing the rules and structure of a game. Development teams usually have a lead designer who coordinates the work of other designers. He is the main visionary of the game. One of the roles of a designer is being a writer, often employed part-time to conceive game's narrative, dialogue, commentary, cutscene narrative, journals, video game packaging content, hint system, etc. In larger projects, there are often separate designer for various parts of the game, such as, game mechanics, user interface, characters, dialogue, etc.

Development teams usually have a lead designer who coordinates the work of other designers. He is the main visionary of the game.

Unfortunately, blizz never really gave a lot of consideration to the lead designer I don't think. I'm getting the feeling that people like chris metzen stepped in to 'accentuate' certain things, while the lead designer just had to shovel out the basic product.

The end result is that the game is still good - but it lacks the touch of older blizz games, where blizz new that attracting an individually loyal player base was srs business. These days, they're all about larger markets (of course, it's still a nerd market - but it's of what I consider 'stupid nerds'; or people that just say 'oh look it's fantasy' or 'oh look it's sci-fi' or 'oh look, the next shiny title').

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TLDR; Basically, the actual designers are the ones that devise the plot and the gameplay of the game. These are the things that make games fun. However, artists (the guys that makes games look pretty on the other hand), are given top priority because they are considered first! In other words, they're more entitled.

And rarely a community will have enough energy to address the concerns of everyone - after all, it's a job (albeit one that pays a salary). Wikipedia suggests that this heirarchy applies to most companies - so it would certainly apply to blizzard.
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TLDR (for the TLDR); Read above, you lazy bastard.

[Equiliari]

StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty
Designer: Dustin Browder
Writers: Brian Kindregan (lead writer), Chris Metzen (story) James M. Waugh (additional dialogue)

So in essence. Dustin, the designer, had nothing (luckilly) to do with the story, but mostly on the game mechanics. Metzen and Kindregan did the story. So is this why some people think the story is bad?

I think its other things than the developmental social hierarchy. In this case, based on the claims made in the wiki (I say it that way cause this is not what I learned in game developement class :P) its actually a good thing the hierarchy was not followed. Dustin's strength is gameplay, not story... so thank Tassadar he didn't do the story! That would be... bad.

[solidsamurai]

Dustin's strength is gameplay, not story...

How do you know for sure? He might also be a good writer. People, being that they're human beings, are capable of more than one strength.
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If I was hired as lead in a department for just one singular quality, and an artistic quality (in this case, writing) at that, then that'd be a pretty cushy position - compared to the work required in coding and graphics. Just saying.

It's possible that Brian Kindregan is a close friend with the man on the inside.

And he uses his reputation for video game writing* (really not hard and hardly extensive compared to how hard it should be for most artists) to get ahead and get cushy with the dumb nerds ("omg he wrote ME 2 so he MUST BE AWESOME WRITER NO DOUBT FOREVAR.")? Shameful really.

* Video game writing is very easy. Even the 'excellent plot lines'. Really, excellence in video game plots means that it is at least half arsed and that some attention to writing was given. But it is by no means exceptional, or even good. Or difficult and full of effort (unlike computer programming). Effort can be put towards writing, however. It's just that, it's not there.

How many video game writers have written real books? Real fiction?

Seriously - I'm just saying, writing in a video game (while appreciated and justly lauded), shouldn't be boasted in someone's credentials as their selling point. Ever - at least in this day and age. Because it isn't hard to do.

I could probably bang out a story that would defeat FFVII in terms of 'epic awesomeness', but the fan boys/girls would beat me down - namely, due to the fact that it'd need publishing as a video game (instead of say, a book) before it had a decent enough measured assessment for said 'awesome ness'.

[Equiliari]

How do you know for sure? He might also be a good writer. People, being that they're human beings, are capable of more than one strength.

He might be a good writer, its not that. Its just, Brian Kindregan was one of the writers for Mass Effect 2. Its hard to top that, especially being a guy who specializes in game design.

There is a reason why Dustin is not credited as a writer for StarCraft 2 along with Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2, Command & Conquer: Generals and as game design director for The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-Earth series. Its because he does gameplay, not story.

If I was hired as lead in a department for just one singular quality, and an artistic quality (in this case, writing) at that, then that'd be a pretty cushy position - compared to the work required in coding and graphics. Just saying.

Never tried writing a book I take it :P
Being a writer is not as cushy position as you might think. Once you get a deadline, your writing suffers. That could be a factor in SC2, not the hierarchy. In fact, as a graphics artist myself, I have a way easier job than the writers do.

[solidsamurai]

Never tried writing a book I take it :P
Being a writer is not as cushy position as you might think. Once you get a deadline, your writing suffers. That could be a factor in SC2, not the hierarchy. In fact, as a graphics artist myself, I have a way easier job than the writers do.

Complete bull.

Mass Effect 2 is hardly writing. It's 'good' for video game writing. You didn't address that point, sir.

And yeah, I'm a wannabe writer - I have a bit of an idea of what it's like to write a book. I know that sometimes you have to improvise things like dialogue when there's deadlines coming up. And an outline helps, as does flexible thinking (you can't just visualize a singular plot idea and pursue that; when you have writer's block, you probably end up writing something completely different - but so what? If you're a decent writer, you can still make it an enjoyable read).

But Brian? I mean c'mon - you can't get any cheesier with what he came up with. And he was the lead. Seriously. It sounds like he was just all "okay guys, brain storm a story for me - I'm gonna go get coffee and then do some more PR".

[Equiliari]

Complete bull.

Still not the hierarchy that is to blame.
And Dustin still does not do stories in games because he is a games designer not a writer, unless said games is called Heavy Gear.

Mass Effect 2 is hardly writing. It's 'good' for video game writing. You didn't address that point, sir.

But this is a dicussion about video game writing. And most seem to say that Mass Effect 2's (and probably 1) story is better than SC2. It might be "bad" book writing, but its good game writing.
And I did not address it because you edited it in after/during I did mine.

And he uses his reputation for video game writing to get ahead and get cushy with the dumb nerds ("omg he wrote ME 2 so he MUST BE AWESOME WRITER NO DOUBT FOREVAR.")? Shameful really.

Maybe because he wants to do it instead of being storyboard artist?

How many video game writers have written real books? Real fiction?

No idea. Not much of a reader anyway...

I could probably bang out a story that would defeat FFVII in terms of 'epic awesomeness', but the fan boys/girls would beat me down - namely, due to the fact that it'd need publishing as a video game (instead of say, a book) before it had a decent enough measured assessment for said 'awesome ness'.

So its basically not that easy to write a story for a game after all...

But Brian? I mean c'mon - you can't get any cheesier with what he came up with. And he was the lead. Seriously. It sounds like he was just all "okay guys, brain storm a story for me - I'm gonna go get coffee and then do some more PR".

Thats... pretty much what he did... simplified. Metzen probably came up with the story arc. Brian filled in the "holes" with his writing.

[Sheliek]

. . .
How many video game writers have written real books? Real fiction?

. . .

How are video games not real fiction?

[solidsamurai]

Maybe because he wants to do it instead of being storyboard artist?

The fact that he has the right to choose what he does in contract with blizz indicates in itself the sheer cushiness of his job. And he's an executive by technicality. Jeeze.

So its basically not that easy to write a story for a game after all...

The exact opposite. Sorry, but how do you draw that conclusion? I said that it's difficult to get a book published when you write a story with merely video game level plot quality expectations.

If you were writing for a video game company, then it depends on how much they value your writing I suppose (note that things like coding and graphic design leave a lot to look after - writing, meanwhile, is just words on paper; graphics and the results of coding leave a lot more to look at in a short interval). And how much they truly care about the plot and if that investment is worth it - that decision rests with the executive producer (or position with different title but equivalent privileges).

Actually, it might be simple to publish crap in book format for some people - it's just that the book won't sell unless you have a Christopher Paolini scenario (the guy who wrote trashy cliche fantasy as a product of his youth and ended up getting big bucks when he hit age 20, maybe because of some major marketing benefactors or something).

TLDR: No, writing for video games is easy, because they don't really value it when the sell-point game potentially hinges on other things like gameplay, immersiveness (graphics, sound, voice acting, lay out of levels, etc.), and balance (only ever necessary for some games - hence, it's a special department). If it's anything like an ordinary career, you'll be given more tasks than writing - that includes the necessity of storyboarding and some other tasks too. Companies look for expansive resumes for just this reason.

[mr. peasant]

TLDR: No, writing for video games is easy, because they don't really value it when the sell-point game potentially hinges on other things like gameplay, immersiveness (graphics, sound, voice acting, lay out of levels, etc.), and balance (only ever necessary for some games - hence, it's a special department). If it's anything like an ordinary career, you'll be given more tasks than writing - that includes the necessity of storyboarding and some other tasks too. Companies look for expansive resumes for just this reason.

I disagree. Video game writing is not 'easy' for reasons outlined here. While bad writing is easy to achieve, good writing is considerably more difficult. Same as programming - bad programming is easy while good programming is difficult. It's just that the audience, and consequently the industry, expects more from the latter. If people held writing to the same standards as other aspects in video gaming, this would become apparent.

Specific to Starcraft II, I think the most likely 'reason' for the quality in writing is due to how Blizzard went about designing the game. Take a look at this answer by Browder when asked if mission ideas were saved for use in sequels:

Not really. We definitely had ideas for Protoss and Zerg-specific mechanics, but if we had a good idea, it was going in Wings of Liberty. We needed every idea we could get. I’ve heard of people being afraid of using their ideas now when they can hoard them for later, but no, we definitely don’t do that. We try to jam everything we can into whatever’s in front of us. We have the courage and confidence to know that, you know what, later on, we’ll do more work, and we’ll have more ideas, and we’ll think up some cool stuff. We had ideas for missions about spreading creep and missions about warping that obviously wouldn’t work as well in a Terran campaign, so we didn’t use them. But if it was a mechanic that would work for any race, it got used.

From this answer, it can be inferred that missions were designed before, or at the very least independent of, the storyline. As such, the story had to be written to connect the missions together - with what we got as a result. But as for the dialogue, that's on the writer.

Now, the reason why I say 'reason' with quotation marks is because such development structure can still be made to work, as seen by other games from which the current benchmark for acceptable writing is being derived from. However, they're likely to be 'in spite of' rather than 'because of'.

[solidsamurai]

Oh, I get it.

Well, thanks for bringing to rest this issue then, sir.

I still think Brian's job is cushy though.